Melanie Deziel's trust-building content strategy using the "Prove It" framework

[00:00:00] Ramli John: Everybody hates marketers.

[00:00:01] Ramli John: Well, not everybody, but if you look at Gallup survey from 2020, americans rates advertising practitioners as only slightly more trustworthy than car salespeople.

[00:00:10] Ramli John: Come on.

[00:00:11] Ramli John: That hurts so much.

[00:00:12] Ramli John: It's because people believe marketers are willing to bend the truth and manipulate people, buy things that they actually don't want.

[00:00:18] Ramli John: Modern buyers are skeptical of advertising and marketing more than ever.

[00:00:23] Melanie Deziel: If we don't acknowledge the incredible amount of skepticism and doubt that we're up against, then chances are we're not going to be able to overcome it because we can't even acknowledge it's there.

[00:00:32] Melanie Deziel: So while court may seem like a super serious environment, I figured most of us can relate to from, like, court shows or crime dramas, we've seen just the idea that in a courtroom environment, there's the jury, and they don't know what to think, and they're waiting on people to present them a case that helps them decide who to trust.

[00:00:51] Ramli John: I love this analogy because as marketers, we like to think of ourselves as building a relationship, but in some sense, it is.

[00:00:57] Ramli John: But early on, with buyers who are more skeptical of anything that feels way too marketing, we have to earn trust.

[00:01:06] Ramli John: In this marketing powerups episode, you learn, first, the five types of claims that brands make.

[00:01:10] Ramli John: Second, the three types of evidence to provide compelling evidence for those claims.

[00:01:15] Ramli John: Third, a brand that's doing a good job of using evidence to prove their claims.

[00:01:18] Ramli John: And fourth one, power up, that helps Melanie accelerate her career.

[00:01:22] Ramli John: Before we start, I've created a free PowerUp cheat sheet that you can download, fill in, and apply Melanie's three types of evidence to convince your buyers to trust and purchase from you.

[00:01:31] Ramli John: You can go to Marketing Powerups.com right now to get it or find that link in the description and show us.

[00:01:36] Ramli John: Are you ready?

[00:01:37] Ramli John: Let's go.

[00:01:38] Announcer: Marketing powerups.

[00:01:41] Announcer: Ready?

[00:01:42] Announcer: Go.

[00:01:45] Announcer: Here's your host, Ramli John.

[00:01:49] Marketing Relationships Should Be Earned: Melanie Deziel on Marketing Powerups

[00:01:49] Ramli John: Well, let's chat about marketing powerups, specifically your book Prove it.

[00:01:53] Ramli John: I know that you put this together, and one of the central piece to it is around how you say the stats from marketing charts.

[00:02:04] Ramli John: The three quarters of people, they have a huge distrust for companies.

[00:02:09] Ramli John: And you brought up this analogy of as marketers, you have to bring evidence to people now.

[00:02:15] Ramli John: And this whole analogy, you say, is much better than the whole analogy of building dating or building a friendship or relationship because people have this wall.

[00:02:26] Ramli John: Can you share why?

[00:02:27] Ramli John: It's that analogy of the courtroom and bringing evidence and proof is so more important nowadays.

[00:02:34] Melanie Deziel: So I think what I realized is we talk about relationship building, and generally speaking, most of the relationships that we make analogies to dating a partner or a new connection, a new friend, it's about people who are equally interested in building that relationship, right?

[00:02:48] Melanie Deziel: Like you're both invested.

[00:02:50] Melanie Deziel: And I think what we kind of have to realize is that the market has really shifted, and people are so skeptical.

[00:02:57] Melanie Deziel: There's so many folks who are trying to rip them off, steal their data, scam them in some kind of way.

[00:03:05] Melanie Deziel: We see that in our spam folder of email, in our text, inbox it's everywhere.

[00:03:10] Melanie Deziel: So they're not as excited to build a relationship with us as we are with them.

[00:03:15] Melanie Deziel: And that's sad to think about, but I think acknowledging that reality of what we're up against, that we're up against this skepticism and doubt and fear that that really shifts the mindset toward, okay, how do I earn that?

[00:03:28] Melanie Deziel: It's not just about building a relationship.

[00:03:30] Melanie Deziel: I have to earn the right to build that relationship.

[00:03:33] Melanie Deziel: I have to earn that trust.

[00:03:34] Melanie Deziel: It kind of shifts the mindset.

[00:03:36] Melanie Deziel: And I think that is a more realistic approach because if we don't acknowledge the incredible amount of skepticism and doubt that we're up against, then chances are we're not going to be able to overcome it because we can't even acknowledge it's there.

[00:03:48] Melanie Deziel: So while court may seem like a super serious environment, I figured most of us can relate to, generally speaking, from, like, court shows or crime dramas, we've seen just the idea that in a courtroom environment, there's the jury, and they don't know what to think, and they're waiting on people to present them a case that helps them decide who to trust.

[00:04:12] Melanie Deziel: So to me, that felt like that's something we could relate to.

[00:04:15] Melanie Deziel: If we think of ourselves like, this is a skeptical jury that we have to win over.

[00:04:18] Melanie Deziel: We have to present our case, we're worthy of trusting, we are bringing the truth to you.

[00:04:23] Melanie Deziel: That that kind of makes us a little more mission oriented.

[00:04:25] Melanie Deziel: Like, we know what we're trying to accomplish.

[00:04:28] Ramli John: I really like that whenever somebody brings up how marketing is like dating or marketing is like being friends, I kind of get weirded out because my wife is my wife.

[00:04:41] Ramli John: I treat it differently than I treat Apple or the software tools that use.

[00:04:47] Ramli John: And you're right.

[00:04:48] Ramli John: I think people are more sky, especially with more and more tools and startups and things like that out there.

[00:04:54] Ramli John: People are really more like, what is it in it for me, essentially?

[00:04:57] Ramli John: And how can you prove that right away, within a short period of time?

[00:05:01] Melanie Deziel: 100%.

[00:05:02] Melanie Deziel: And I think I've talked to some folks who are like, well, I don't like to think about that.

[00:05:07] Melanie Deziel: That's, like, upsetting to think that our audience doesn't like us, doesn't trust us, that they're skeptical.

[00:05:12] Melanie Deziel: But I think honestly, it's the reality.

[00:05:15] Melanie Deziel: It's better to face it and do something about it.

[00:05:17] Melanie Deziel: And too often with marketing, it's really easy for us to just assume that everyone, like we said, cares about what we're saying, cares about what we're doing.

[00:05:26] Melanie Deziel: But when we are in the consumer seat, like when we step away from our desk or outside of the office and we're the consumer, we're skeptical too.

[00:05:35] Melanie Deziel: It makes sense.

[00:05:36] Melanie Deziel: It's the logical choice as a consumer to be skeptical and to try to be discerning about who you share your data with and who you do business with so we can't really hold it against them.

[00:05:45] Melanie Deziel: It's the natural way of operating in the environment that we're all living in.

[00:05:50] Ramli John: It totally makes sense.

[00:05:51] Ramli John: And I think that's a whole central piece to your book.

[00:05:54] Ramli John: I have it right here.

[00:05:55] Ramli John: I just read it.

[00:05:56] Ramli John: And for people who are tuning in, definitely go check it out.

[00:05:59] Ramli John: It's at peoplehoupproveit.com.

[00:06:01] The 5 Types of Claims Brands Need to Prove

[00:06:01] Ramli John: But you share five claim types that brands have to go through to really have evidence for.

[00:06:10] Ramli John: Can you share those?

[00:06:11] Ramli John: What are those five claim types that the brands might have?

[00:06:18] Melanie Deziel: Absolutely.

[00:06:19] Melanie Deziel: Yeah.

[00:06:19] Melanie Deziel: So there's five different claim types.

[00:06:21] Melanie Deziel: And I always say I don't pretend that this is the only system to think about this kind of information.

[00:06:28] Melanie Deziel: So there are certainly probably other claim types that exist out there.

[00:06:31] Melanie Deziel: But generally speaking, when I'm working with clients, most of the claims that a business makes fall into these five categories.

[00:06:38] Melanie Deziel: So hopefully it'll be helpful for you for identifying the claims that you need to prove.

[00:06:42] Melanie Deziel: So the first one is convenience.

[00:06:45] Melanie Deziel: A lot of claims, particularly like in the direct B to C space, are about convenience and that's things like how affordable it is, how easy your product is to use, how fast you can deliver, how easy it is to set up.

[00:06:56] Melanie Deziel: Right.

[00:06:57] Melanie Deziel: Anything where you're selling like this is an easy experience.

[00:07:00] Melanie Deziel: It's not painful to work with us in some way.

[00:07:03] Melanie Deziel: Right.

[00:07:04] Melanie Deziel: So those are convenience claims where you're making it that it's easy, it's simple, it's fast, things like that.

[00:07:10] Melanie Deziel: Comparability or comparability claims are the ones that are really pitting you up against some other solution.

[00:07:17] Melanie Deziel: So this is that we're better, we are more durable, it's higher quality.

[00:07:23] Melanie Deziel: It's sort of whether you're naming a specific competitor or not, just saying compared to doing nothing, or compared to other options, here's how we fare.

[00:07:32] Melanie Deziel: So those kind of claims you want to back up too, of course.

[00:07:35] Melanie Deziel: Like, says who?

[00:07:36] Melanie Deziel: Who says that you're higher quality or more durable.

[00:07:39] Melanie Deziel: Like show me.

[00:07:40] Melanie Deziel: The next category is commitment.

[00:07:42] Melanie Deziel: So this is a lot of times it's commitment to your consumers, which I think we all kind of make in some general sense.

[00:07:49] Melanie Deziel: We're all saying we're committed to delivering results and making you a happy customer.

[00:07:53] Melanie Deziel: But more often it's like a commitment to a value of some kind.

[00:07:57] Melanie Deziel: So that would be commitment to sustainability or equal pay or any number of causes or values that are important to you as a company.

[00:08:08] Melanie Deziel: So those kind of things fall under commitment.

[00:08:12] Melanie Deziel: The next one is kind of similar connection claims, whereas commitment is sort of one directional.

[00:08:17] Melanie Deziel: Like we as a company or me as a brand are committed to sustainability and having a smaller carbon footprint connection is more bi directional.

[00:08:26] Melanie Deziel: This is where that relationship stuff we talked about comes into play.

[00:08:29] Melanie Deziel: This is where you're a name, not a number with us or we're really going to get to know you personally and help come up with a customized solution that people stay with us for a long time.

[00:08:40] Melanie Deziel: It's the claims related to how deep that connection is with your customers.

[00:08:44] Melanie Deziel: And then the last category is kind of this is the basic stuff.

[00:08:47] Melanie Deziel: This is competence.

[00:08:48] Melanie Deziel: So competence claims are like, we create results, we do what we say we're going to do.

[00:08:53] Melanie Deziel: We show up when we say we're going to show up.

[00:08:56] Melanie Deziel: Our product does what we say it does.

[00:08:58] Melanie Deziel: So those are the five categories that most of the claims we make as a business come into.

[00:09:02] Melanie Deziel: Convenience, comparability, commitment, connection, and competence.

[00:09:05] Melanie Deziel: Those are the five that most often your business is making a claim.

[00:09:10] Melanie Deziel: It's in one of those five categories and you're probably making claims in several of those categories.

[00:09:14] 5 ways to differentiate your brand through messaging

[00:09:14] Ramli John: Before we continue, I want to thank those who made this video possible.

[00:09:17] Ramli John: 42 Agency.

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[00:09:57] Ramli John: Now, you can find that link in the description below.

[00:09:59] Ramli John: Let's jump back in.

[00:10:01] Ramli John: That was my follow up question.

[00:10:02] Ramli John: Like a brand can have combination of they can even have all five of them at the same time.

[00:10:08] Ramli John: Potentially, yeah, absolutely.

[00:10:10] Melanie Deziel: I mean, the reality is that most of us can make all of these claims.

[00:10:14] Melanie Deziel: It's more just about figuring out which ones are most relevant for your business, most relevant to your audience.

[00:10:19] Melanie Deziel: Because I'll make an example.

[00:10:22] Melanie Deziel: If you're trying to go get a much needed medical procedure done, you're probably not super concerned about convenience.

[00:10:29] Melanie Deziel: Like, you're going to focus more on competence, right, and the connection the doctor will have to you and maybe their outcomes compared to other doctors.

[00:10:36] Melanie Deziel: But you might not be worried about like, well, how fast can you get me in and out of there?

[00:10:41] Melanie Deziel: How easy is it to put on my surgery garments?

[00:10:44] Melanie Deziel: That's not your top concern.

[00:10:47] Melanie Deziel: But then you think about other purchases.

[00:10:49] Melanie Deziel: If you're looking for, I don't know, foil wrap for your food.

[00:10:53] Melanie Deziel: Do you care deeply about how connected they are to you as a company when they provide you tin foil?

[00:10:58] Melanie Deziel: Probably not.

[00:10:58] Melanie Deziel: Then it's like, really, how affordable is it?

[00:11:00] Melanie Deziel: And does it work better than the brand sitting next to it on the shelf.

[00:11:04] Melanie Deziel: So you're probably making all kinds of claims and it's just figuring out which ones are going to be most relevant for your situation.

[00:11:09] Ramli John: That's true.

[00:11:10] Ramli John: What I heard there was, what does your audience care more most about?

[00:11:15] Ramli John: And I love that example where if I'm getting surgery, I don't want to be like, oh, I'll do it in 30 seconds and then I come out.

[00:11:21] Melanie Deziel: Like, even worse, the fastest, cheapest surgery.

[00:11:26] Ramli John: That is the worst.

[00:11:28] Ramli John: Marketing for fastest and cheapest, probably the worst come out even worse with that.

[00:11:35] Melanie Deziel: Yeah.

[00:11:36] Ramli John: Well, thank you for sharing all five of that.

[00:11:38] The Importance of Evidence and Proof in Content Marketing

[00:11:38] Ramli John: Now, part of the piece that you brought in the book is that there's three ways to bring evidence.

[00:11:44] Ramli John: The brands can bring evidence.

[00:11:45] Ramli John: How can brands really prove in what ways can they prove any of these claims that they have?

[00:11:52] Melanie Deziel: Yeah, so one thing you'll notice from my first book, and from this one, I like a system, I like an acronym and I like a list.

[00:11:58] Melanie Deziel: Right?

[00:11:58] Melanie Deziel: Let's make it easy.

[00:11:59] Melanie Deziel: Let's make it something you can keep track of.

[00:12:02] Melanie Deziel: Because I think so much of what we do in marketing is very abstract and it's always it depends and there's context.

[00:12:07] Melanie Deziel: So trying to give us a guide of some kind is helpful and kind of if we look at the content, that works really well for proving out claims.

[00:12:16] Melanie Deziel: So you have your list of claims, I know what we're saying.

[00:12:19] Melanie Deziel: How do I make sure that I'm proving that not just saying it, but actually proving it?

[00:12:24] Melanie Deziel: That content tends to fall into one of three categories, so we see corroboration.

[00:12:29] Melanie Deziel: So this is, again, coming back to our courtroom analogy here.

[00:12:32] Melanie Deziel: You always want someone who can corroborate what someone is saying.

[00:12:35] Melanie Deziel: They back it up, they sort of endorse it or agree with it.

[00:12:38] Melanie Deziel: And that could be an expert.

[00:12:40] Melanie Deziel: An expert like a doctor or a researcher of some kind coming in and saying like, yep, that's true, that's exactly what it is.

[00:12:47] Melanie Deziel: Or a witness, someone who has experienced it themselves who says, yep, I was there and that's what happened.

[00:12:53] Melanie Deziel: So we can do the same thing with our brand, bringing in quotes or interviews with experts, with witnesses like our customers or our employees, and having them kind of add to it so that it's not just us as a brand saying like, trust us on this.

[00:13:08] Melanie Deziel: We can say, you don't have to take our word for it.

[00:13:10] Melanie Deziel: You can take their word for it, these experts and these witnesses, but you can also look toward other types of proof that work well too.

[00:13:18] Melanie Deziel: And another one is demonstration.

[00:13:21] Melanie Deziel: So demonstration is the you don't have to take our word for it.

[00:13:24] Melanie Deziel: You could see for yourself.

[00:13:25] Melanie Deziel: So that's where we're going to sort of tell in depth stories that help someone understand.

[00:13:30] Melanie Deziel: Yeah, or document it, maybe show it in real time.

[00:13:33] Melanie Deziel: If you're saying that your product works faster.

[00:13:36] Melanie Deziel: Show me this side by side.

[00:13:37] Melanie Deziel: Let me see how infomercials are really great at this.

[00:13:43] Melanie Deziel: At the demonstration, they'll show you side by side.

[00:13:46] Melanie Deziel: Like, here's the two things, and look how much our product yeah, before and after.

[00:13:50] Melanie Deziel: Or we got out all of these stains, and the stains didn't come out of this other brand for our soap.

[00:13:55] Melanie Deziel: So it's a way for you to really bring the evidence that the audience can see and kind of make their own judgment again in court showing, like, you see what would happen if we did a blood splatter like this, or like, look at the print that this shoe makes.

[00:14:08] Melanie Deziel: They're showing you so you could see it yourself.

[00:14:10] Melanie Deziel: Right.

[00:14:11] Melanie Deziel: And then the last category.

[00:14:13] Melanie Deziel: So the third type of content that works really well in addition to corroborating and demonstrating, is educational content.

[00:14:20] Melanie Deziel: And the reality for educational content is understanding that for a lot of us, we're playing a little bit of like, inside baseball.

[00:14:27] Melanie Deziel: Like, we understand what we're talking about, but our audience may not.

[00:14:31] Melanie Deziel: It's difficult to explain to an audience member why the parts per million of a particular element in your ingredients is important if they don't understand the chemical makeup of our products and why that matters.

[00:14:45] Melanie Deziel: Right.

[00:14:45] Melanie Deziel: So we need to kind of give them more information and teach them about it so that they can make a more educated understanding and come to that decision of truth that like, okay, these guys know what they're talking about.

[00:14:57] Melanie Deziel: So that's that reminder that sometimes before we can get to the corroboration and the demonstration, we need to preface that with some educational content to kind of get them up to speed.

[00:15:09] Ramli John: I keep thinking about a courtroom.

[00:15:11] Ramli John: Again, all these things are so really well done.

[00:15:15] Ramli John: All of them sounds so I've been thinking a lot about demonstration as well.

[00:15:19] Ramli John: How the whole product led try before you buy kind of situation is really fitting into there where we're making these claims.

[00:15:28] Ramli John: Try it.

[00:15:29] Ramli John: Try it.

[00:15:30] Ramli John: Do it for yourselves.

[00:15:31] Melanie Deziel: Exactly.

[00:15:32] Ramli John: For yourselves.

[00:15:33] Ramli John: Really fascinating.

[00:15:34] Melanie Deziel: Yeah.

[00:15:35] Using the Prove It Framework to Strengthen Your Marketing Strategy

[00:15:35] Ramli John: In terms of a brand that does any of this proving it really well, is there something that one that comes to mind?

[00:15:43] Ramli John: I know you brought up a ton of examples in the book and how they've proven their claims.

[00:15:49] Ramli John: Is there one for you that really stands out as a brand that has done a good job of proving it?

[00:15:54] Melanie Deziel: Yeah, it's always tough to pick one because like you said, I went on a deep dive and I feel like I got to know a lot of brands really well.

[00:16:03] Melanie Deziel: But one that most folks can probably relate to most is Apple.

[00:16:07] Melanie Deziel: So Apple does a really good job of particularly like, demonstration.

[00:16:11] Melanie Deziel: So when you see an Apple commercial and they say they're not just saying our camera has twelve megapixels, and that means that blah, blah, blah, they're showing you side by side like, here's a photo taken with ours, and here's a photo taken with a different camera.

[00:16:24] Melanie Deziel: Or look at how crisp this photo we took, taken with iPhone.

[00:16:27] Melanie Deziel: They had that whole awesome campaign.

[00:16:30] Melanie Deziel: It was billboards and other large format ads that were photos taken on an iPhone.

[00:16:35] Melanie Deziel: Like not retouched, not anything, just your iPhone can take photos that are this good.

[00:16:39] Melanie Deziel: Right.

[00:16:40] Melanie Deziel: So really demonstrating, showing like, this is exactly what you're going to get with us.

[00:16:45] Melanie Deziel: A real see for yourself kind of thing.

[00:16:48] Melanie Deziel: But they've also done a good job of education.

[00:16:50] Melanie Deziel: So those of us who have been around for a while will remember the I'm a Mac, I'm a PC series of commercials, right, from like the early 2000s, late ninety s, I think, where they really were doing a lot of education.

[00:17:05] Melanie Deziel: It was joking that we had one character representing Macs and one character representing PCs, and they sort of had this playful banter, but through that process, they were bantering about things like virus detection and compatibility and storage and things like that.

[00:17:22] Melanie Deziel: So they were teaching us, but through entertainment as well, to help us understand.

[00:17:25] Melanie Deziel: Okay, it sounds like if I get a Mac instead of a PC, I don't have to worry as much about viruses and malware because they protect better against that.

[00:17:34] Melanie Deziel: So, again, educating not just saying like, hey, ours is safer, but really going in detail and saying, here's why it's safer, here's what that means and why it's important.

[00:17:44] Ramli John: It's fascinating.

[00:17:44] Ramli John: There was also, I remember an ad, they did a video ad where it was all shot in iPhone, where like, oh, wow, this looks like a professional video.

[00:17:52] Ramli John: You're right.

[00:17:52] Ramli John: They're doing like a good job of showing off, like, oh, this is a professional quality video camera on a phone.

[00:18:00] Melanie Deziel: Yes, 100%.

[00:18:01] Melanie Deziel: And I mean, they use a lot of the other types of evidence too, as well, and they're proving different types of claims.

[00:18:06] Melanie Deziel: I think the camera ones, I think are most visceral because it's really the actual, like, see it with your own eyes.

[00:18:12] Melanie Deziel: Right.

[00:18:12] Melanie Deziel: It's really that documentation that we're talking about.

[00:18:15] Melanie Deziel: And it can be really powerful.

[00:18:17] Melanie Deziel: They always say a picture is worth 1000 words.

[00:18:20] Melanie Deziel: So if they're coming out with a visual campaign like that, it certainly can go a long way toward helping you understand the value of that device you're about to purchase.

[00:18:28] Ramli John: That's so true.

[00:18:29] Ramli John: And I think another important point is it's good to use all three of this evidence types at the same time.

[00:18:37] Ramli John: I think that kind of builds a better case, like you're trying to prove I'm watching a lot of murder dramas right now.

[00:18:47] Ramli John: Yeah, it's true.

[00:18:49] Ramli John: Your court is right, is what I'm hearing.

[00:18:52] Melanie Deziel: Exactly.

[00:18:52] Melanie Deziel: Yeah.

[00:18:53] Melanie Deziel: Again, I think it's familiar to most of us, so it's easy to think about.

[00:18:57] Melanie Deziel: We've all seen the episode of the court drama where there's only one witness and it's he said, she said.

[00:19:01] Melanie Deziel: So we got to bring in other types of evidence or, okay, well, you're telling a story, but anyone could say that, let me see it.

[00:19:08] Melanie Deziel: Show me the map.

[00:19:09] Melanie Deziel: Show me the photos of the scene, right, where we can kind of understand how one single type of evidence or one single piece, like maybe one article or one blog post, one photo from Apple may not be enough to help them understand, to get them all the way to trusting.

[00:19:24] Melanie Deziel: So this whole prove it process is less about making one specific type of claim and proving it with one specific type of evidence and really more about thinking about all the content and all the communication you do through this lens of, like, am I proving it?

[00:19:40] Melanie Deziel: And if I'm proving it, what type of claim am I proving?

[00:19:42] Melanie Deziel: Or what claim are we making here and how could we prove it?

[00:19:45] Melanie Deziel: So it's really more of a mindset shift to say every single day that we wake up and we sit down at our desks as marketers, we're sitting down in the courtroom, and it's our job to prove to our audience that we are who we say we are and we do what we say we do.

[00:19:58] Ramli John: I love that.

[00:19:59] Ramli John: That's really great summary of that segment of this.

[00:20:05] Career Acceleration with Curiosity and Learning

[00:20:05] Ramli John: I want to shift gears now and talk about careers.

[00:20:07] Ramli John: You've been in marketing for a decade.

[00:20:09] Ramli John: You were one of the first editor of Content brand at New York Times.

[00:20:16] Ramli John: Yeah, New York Times.

[00:20:17] Ramli John: And now you're a co founder at a startup, the Convoy, and VP of Marketing.

[00:20:21] Ramli John: There long career.

[00:20:24] Ramli John: What's really helped you accelerate your career?

[00:20:26] Ramli John: What's a power up in your career that's helped you?

[00:20:29] Ramli John: Whether it's meeting the right people or finding the right thing, what's a career power up for you that's helped you?

[00:20:36] Melanie Deziel: I don't know if this quite is the answer that you're looking for, but for me, I think it's all about curiosity, like a good amount of the jobs that I've taken or the projects I've worked on.

[00:20:48] Melanie Deziel: I wasn't actually positive in the beginning that I could do it or that I knew enough to do it, but I understood that I'm curious enough to learn what I need to learn.

[00:20:57] Melanie Deziel: So working with The Convoy, for example, we're building technology that helps small businesses save money on their business expenses.

[00:21:06] Melanie Deziel: I don't have a technology background, and I am a small business, but I've never created technology for small businesses.

[00:21:13] Melanie Deziel: But I know that I could talk to enough customers to understand their needs, that it would fill those gaps for me.

[00:21:19] Melanie Deziel: And when I look back to major transitions, major projects, major things that I've worked on, it's always that same mindset of like, okay, I acknowledge that there are some gaps here, but I know that I am curious enough to seek out the information to fill those gaps.

[00:21:35] Melanie Deziel: And I think that's really, for me, I think that's like a cheat code right?

[00:21:40] Melanie Deziel: Because if you're only going for the things that you're 100% ready for, you're going to miss out on a lot of opportunities.

[00:21:46] Melanie Deziel: And if you know yourself and you know your dedication enough to know that I'll take a class on skillshare.

[00:21:51] Melanie Deziel: I'll watch 40 hours of YouTube videos, I'll read every tutorial.

[00:21:55] Melanie Deziel: Like, I'll learn I can learn how to how to fill those gaps.

[00:21:58] Melanie Deziel: It allows you to kind of level up in a different way.

[00:22:02] Ramli John: That's so good.

[00:22:03] Ramli John: I mean, you can tie it back to the courtroom where if you're a detective, that's a good job, right?

[00:22:08] Melanie Deziel: Yeah, I like it.

[00:22:10] Ramli John: It's so good if it's right.

[00:22:11] Melanie Deziel on Proving Marketing Claims and Building Trust

[00:22:11] Ramli John: In one other question I love asking is around an advice you'd give your younger self.

[00:22:17] Ramli John: Like, if you can travel back in time to Melanie, who's just starting out in marketing and journalism, what advice would you give that younger version of Melanie?

[00:22:28] Ramli John: So I've got two.

[00:22:29] Melanie Deziel: I think one would be dress how you want to dress.

[00:22:34] Melanie Deziel: And I know that sounds really simple, but I think for me, especially when I was moving from journalism into business, I had this idea in my head of what a business person wears and looks like.

[00:22:46] Melanie Deziel: You know what I mean?

[00:22:47] Melanie Deziel: I was like, oh, I got to get blazers, I got to wear high heels, I need a briefcase.

[00:22:53] Melanie Deziel: And I think I look back and I'm like, I think I was cosplaying as an adult business person.

[00:22:59] Melanie Deziel: It looked fine at the time, I think.

[00:23:01] Melanie Deziel: I'm sure it was fine, but I wish that I had had more confidence to just come in the way that I was and kind of own my own style, my own identity with confidence, rather than feeling like I kind of have to, like, dress up as what people expect.

[00:23:14] Melanie Deziel: Because the reality is, as a 20 something female in a lot of those rooms, I was going to be out of place no matter what.

[00:23:22] Melanie Deziel: I was going to walk into a room with a bunch of 50 year old white dudes.

[00:23:25] Melanie Deziel: That was just the reality.

[00:23:26] Melanie Deziel: So I might as well have just owned it instead of trying to dress up like something I was never going to be.

[00:23:33] Melanie Deziel: And the other one is related, but charge more, charge more.

[00:23:36] Melanie Deziel: Whatever you think you're worth, you're worth more.

[00:23:38] Melanie Deziel: And it comes from, again, a place of, like, impostor syndrome or insecurity or feeling like you're new and, like, who am I to do this?

[00:23:48] Melanie Deziel: You're missing out.

[00:23:49] Melanie Deziel: You're missing out by not asking.

[00:23:50] Melanie Deziel: You can only get what you ask for.

[00:23:52] Ramli John: So good.

[00:23:53] Ramli John: I like that whole cosplay.

[00:23:54] Ramli John: I'm not thinking about, like, a Comic Con.

[00:23:57] Melanie Deziel: I mean, that's how I look back and I'm like, what was I doing?

[00:24:01] Melanie Deziel: Just like, I don't know, shoulder pads.

[00:24:03] Melanie Deziel: Like, oh, man, it was not good.

[00:24:06] Ramli John: Yeah, I remember I would, like, come into the office with a tie.

[00:24:09] Ramli John: Yeah, I think the other thing with charging more, I don't know, maybe I keep tying back to this courtroom.

[00:24:17] Ramli John: It's like if you provide more evidence, you probably can charge more.

[00:24:21] Ramli John: I think the more that you build up, like corroboration and demonstration and all the evidence you should be charging more as you provide more evidence really ties.

[00:24:32] Melanie Deziel: Back to that 100%.

[00:24:33] Melanie Deziel: And I think that that's probably a big part of especially when folks are starting out, they feel like, well, I don't have the big brand names on my website.

[00:24:41] Melanie Deziel: I don't have 25 testimonials.

[00:24:44] Melanie Deziel: They may not feel like you have enough of that evidence yet.

[00:24:47] Melanie Deziel: And so looking for whatever type of evidence you can provide, like, you do this work because you're good at it is the assumption.

[00:24:54] Melanie Deziel: Right.

[00:24:54] Melanie Deziel: So who have you provided work for, even if it's not a client?

[00:24:57] Melanie Deziel: Do you have a coworker who can attest a former boss who can leave a testimonial of how great your copy is or how creative your ideas are?

[00:25:05] Melanie Deziel: Find those ways that you can bring the evidence into it, because you just have to do it a little unconventionally until you're able to get those more conventional testimonials, the big brand logos and things makes sense.

[00:25:17] Ramli John: I think the other thing to proving it, especially when it comes to imposter syndrome, I ask a few folks, especially marketing around this, is sometimes we have to prove it to ourselves too.

[00:25:26] Ramli John: It's more like a confidence issue where having a win folder or a celebration box with all the things that people have told about you kind of builds up that confidence to charge more and to take more risk and to step forward rather than staying where you're at 100%.

[00:25:44] Melanie Deziel: Yeah.

[00:25:46] Melanie Deziel: And I think this particularly affects young people who are entering a field, people who are maybe later in their careers and transitioning industries, women and people of color who are often underestimated and undervalued in these different spaces.

[00:26:01] Melanie Deziel: It can be really helpful to have some sort of reminder come back to the proof, like, where's the documentation?

[00:26:07] Melanie Deziel: Print out the really complimentary email.

[00:26:10] Melanie Deziel: This sounds silly behind me on my desk, if anyone's just listening.

[00:26:15] Melanie Deziel: I have several awards over here that are just here now.

[00:26:19] Melanie Deziel: They're from a long time ago.

[00:26:20] Melanie Deziel: But those are my reminder when I sit down at this desk that I'm good at what I do and that I can provide value to my customers.

[00:26:26] Melanie Deziel: Right.

[00:26:27] Melanie Deziel: And I have that visual reminder, like, don't underestimate yourself.

[00:26:30] Melanie Deziel: Like, look, you've done good things.

[00:26:32] Melanie Deziel: So, yeah, hang the badge from the conference that you went to.

[00:26:35] Melanie Deziel: Print out the complimentary email.

[00:26:38] Melanie Deziel: Put a postit note with the name of every person who's supported you and rooted for you.

[00:26:42] Melanie Deziel: Give yourself that visual reminder because sometimes we forget that we've got evidence of our own.

[00:26:47] Melanie Deziel: Awesomeness.

[00:26:48] Ramli John: That's so good.

[00:26:50] Ramli John: I was talking to Jake House around this.

[00:26:53] Ramli John: His career power up is around belief.

[00:26:56] Ramli John: Believing yourself and believing in others.

[00:26:57] Ramli John: I think having all those awards.

[00:27:00] Ramli John: Up on the wall and printed emails kind of makes once again, I keep going back to proving it, prove it, but proving it to yourself.

[00:27:07] Ramli John: You're proving it to yourself, you're proving it to others.

[00:27:09] Melanie Deziel: Absolutely.

[00:27:10] Melanie Deziel: Yeah.

[00:27:10] Melanie Deziel: I think if you can be your own, you're the first judge.

[00:27:14] Melanie Deziel: I guess if we're bringing it back, right, like, you're the first judge that you have to win over.

[00:27:18] Melanie Deziel: But that is really a power up, right.

[00:27:21] Melanie Deziel: If you can just believe in yourself and understand that the proof that you're looking for of your own greetings may not be the traditional things, like, you don't have to have a diploma hanging on the wall.

[00:27:33] Melanie Deziel: You don't have to have a trophy or an award.

[00:27:35] Melanie Deziel: It could be, like we said, those awesome emails that you get from clients who are happy with your work.

[00:27:40] Melanie Deziel: It could be the endorsement on LinkedIn from someone that you really respect.

[00:27:43] Melanie Deziel: It could be the letter of recommendation that someone wrote for you ten years ago that makes you feel really proud of the impression you made.

[00:27:50] Melanie Deziel: Like, whatever it is, there are people rooting for you that can remind you of your own awesomeness as you're going into whatever challenges next.

[00:27:58] Ramli John: This brings up this point that this book can be applied to people as a career.

[00:28:04] Ramli John: Like, if you see yourself as a brand, as a personal brand, you can get your claim types and get all those evidence and now could ask for that race, get a job you want.

[00:28:15] Ramli John: Hell, get a client and charge more.

[00:28:18] Ramli John: I think that's really take way from this is this book can be applied to their own careers 100%.

[00:28:24] Melanie Deziel: And if you think about, like, if you and I are both going in to ask for a raise, and I come in and just say, hello, I would like more money, please.

[00:28:31] Melanie Deziel: And you come in and you say, here's my last three reviews that I had.

[00:28:35] Melanie Deziel: They're all positive.

[00:28:36] Melanie Deziel: They're all 4.5 out of five or above.

[00:28:38] Melanie Deziel: Here's this awesome remember when I saved this account and I had this great client relationship?

[00:28:44] Melanie Deziel: And you bring that evidence, it's a lot harder to say no to you because you've brought the proof.

[00:28:49] Melanie Deziel: Like, I deserve this raise, and here's all the evidence put forth.

[00:28:53] Melanie Deziel: Somebody who's just rolling in like, hello, I would like more money.

[00:28:56] Melanie Deziel: That's much easier to dismiss because why on earth do I need more?

[00:29:00] Melanie Deziel: I think you can use this in your personal life to kind of earn trust back from people you may have disappointed or something, to reconnect old relationships where you need to kind of prove that you can be valuable to their life and vice versa.

[00:29:16] Melanie Deziel: You could do this, I mean, yeah, to get the house that you want, to get the job that you want.

[00:29:20] Melanie Deziel: It's really something that kind of taps into our deep subconscious about trust and who we can open up to.

[00:29:27] Ramli John: Hope you found this conversation as insightful as I did.

[00:29:30] Ramli John: I love how Melanie used her background in journalism to help marketers build trust with people and prove the claims they're making.

[00:29:35] Ramli John: Find out more about Melanie's book, prove it by going to Peoplehoupprovet.com and follow Melanie on LinkedIn and Twitter.

[00:29:41] Ramli John: You can find all of those links in the show.

[00:29:43] Ramli John: Notes and Description thanks to Melanie for being on the show.

[00:29:46] Overcoming Growth Plateaus With Marketing Powerups

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[00:30:31] Ramli John: Have a powered update.

[00:30:32] Ramli John: Marketing Powerups until the next episode.