Casted's B2B Podcast Maturity Curve ft. Kate DeGroot

Casted's B2B Podcast Maturity Curve ft. Kate DeGroot

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Kate DeGroot, Director of Demand Gen at Casted, shares the 5 stages of the B2B Podcast Maturity Curve.

More B2B brands are launching podcast shows, including Gong, IBM, Salesforce, and Drift.

With a weekly podcast show costing anywhere between $6k (for an audio-only show) to up to $20k (for a video podcast show), what's the ROI on podcasts?

That's where Casted's B2B Podcast Maturity Curve can help. It's a five-step framework to help you amplify your podcast show and measure its impact as a sales enablement tool.

Today' Kate DeGroot, Director of Demand Gen at Casted, discusses their B2B Podcast Maturity Curve in detail.

In this Marketing Powerups episode, you’ll learn:

  1. The benefits of starting a podcast as a B2B brand.
  2. The 5 stages of the B2B Podcast Maturity Model.
  3. An example of a great B2B podcast show.
  4. How to hone your marketing instincts.

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcast and Spotify now, or watch it on YouTube.

I want to thank the sponsor of this episode, 42/Agency.

When you're in scale-up mode, and you have KPIs to hit, the pressure is on to deliver demos and signups.

And it's a lot to handle: demand gen, email sequences, revenue ops, and more! That’s where 42/Agency, founded by my friend Kamil Rextin, can help you.

They’re a strategic partner that’s helped B2B SaaS companies like ProfitWell, Teamwork, Sprout Social and Hubdoc build a predictable revenue engine.

If you’re looking for performance experts and creatives to solve your marketing problems at a fraction of the cost of in-house, look no further.

Go to to talk to a strategist to learn how you can build a high-efficiency revenue engine now.

⭐️ The B2B podcast maturity curve

More B2B brands are launching podcast shows, including Gong, IBM, Salesforce, and Drift.

With a weekly podcast show costing anywhere between $6k (for an audio-only show) to up to $20k (for a video podcast show), what's the ROI on podcasts?

That's where Casted's B2B Podcast Maturity Curve can help. It's a five-step framework to help you amplify your podcast show and measure its impact as a sales enablement tool.

Today' Kate DeGroot, Director of Demand Gen at Casted, discusses their B2B Podcast Maturity Curve in detail.

The B2B Podcast Maturity Curve explains the five stages a brand navigates as it experiments with audio and video content, creates a show, builds an audience, amplifies that content, and delivers clear, measurable business value (i.e., actual revenue):

  1. Channel experimentation
  2. Show creation
  3. Audience growth
  4. Multichannel expansion
  5. Marketing amplification
B2B Podcast Maturity Curve Stage 1

Stage 1 — Channel experimentation 🔬

This stage is about exploring the idea of podcasting. As Kate puts it:

"It's really just having this idea. We are going to play with this. See what it's like? It's not necessarily having the tools quite yet."

At this stage, you’re maybe listening to general consumer or B2B podcasts or watching webinars or virtual event content on demand. At some point, you take the leap to start testing podcasting and video content.

Stage 2 — Show creation 🎙️

This stage involves investing in quality equipment and transitioning from basic recording tools to more professional ones. Your company is starting to seriously invest in using podcasting and video content as a core component of your marketing strategy.

Kate explains, “That's where you start investing in a good go from possibly recording on Zoom to using Riverside or another tool.”

Stage 3 — Audience growth 📣

This stage is often the bottleneck of the entire maturity curve. It's about understanding and growing your audience. To do that, marketing gets more intentional and strategic about promoting every episode — typically through email and social media.

“This is where rigorously analyzing your data becomes really really important...You have to have the data and you have to know what attracts them, what episodes, what part of the episodes they're listening to and going back to.”

Stage 4 — Multichannel expansion 📊

While Stage 3 is focused on building an audience for the podcast, Stage 4 is all about using the show to build the brand. At this stage, your company is repurposing each episode and distributing it across multiple channels.

“This is where you absolutely just blow up. This is also where your podcast is no longer just a podcast. It's part of your brand.”

Stage 5 — Marketing amplification 🔊

The hallmark of Stage 5 is clear, measurable business value. At this level, podcast and video content are central to a brand’s overall marketing strategy. Marketing amplifies all content to maximize its value and can prove its impact on business goals and revenue.

“At this stage, people come to you as the industry leader...This is where those hot leads will come from, and you're driving revenue with your podcast."

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    🎉 About Kate DeGroot

    Kate Degroot is the Director of Demand Generation at Casted, a podcasting platform that helps B2B brands leverage their audio content. With her expertise in marketing and passion for continuous learning, Kate works with leading companies such as Salesforce, Gong, Drift, and IBM to maximize the impact of their podcast strategies.

    🕰️ Timestamps and transcript

    • [00:00:00] B2B Podcasting: Is It Worth it?
    • [00:00:42] Ramli John Interviews Kate Degroot on the Power of Podcasts in Marketing
    • [00:01:09] Why B2B Brands Should Embrace Podcasting
    • [00:02:51] Amplify Your B2B Podcast with Casted and Pillar Pages
    • [00:08:37] The B2B Podcast Maturity Curve and its Impact on ROI
    • [00:14:16] 42 Agency - My Number 1 Recommended Growth Agency
    • [00:15:05] Maximize Your Podcast and Video ROI with Casted
    • [00:16:12] Leveraging Podcasts for B2B Brands to Close High-Value Deals
    • [00:18:56] Maximizing the Impact of Podcasts with Casted's Amplification Process
    • [00:27:24] Kate Degroot on the Importance of Continual Learning in Marketing
    • [00:29:59] Kate Degroot on Trusting Instincts and Creating Impactful Marketing Campaigns
    • [00:33:10] Maximizing Content in a B2B Podcasting Platform with Kate Degroot

    Episode transcript

    Ramli John [00:00:00] Is starting a podcast for B2B brands even worth it? There must be something to it because companies like Gong, Drift, and IBM have started podcast shows in the past few years. It's why the Casted team has created the B2B Maturity Curve, a framework that can help you amplify your podcast and measure its impact as a sales enablement tool. Today, Kate DeGroot, the Director of Demand Gen at Casted, digs into the B2B Podcast Maturity Curve. In this Marketing Powerups episode, you learn first, the benefits of starting a podcast as a B2B brand; second, the five stages of the B2B Podcast Maturity Curve; third, an example of a great B2B podcast show; and number four, how to hone your marketing instincts and how that has helped Kate accelerate her career. Now, before I continue, I've created a free Powerups Cheat Sheet that you can download, fill in, and apply Casted's B2B Podcast Maturity Curve to your own show. Get it at marketingpowerups. com right now or find that link in the show notes and description. Well, are you ready? Let's go.

    Announcer [00:00:59] Marketing Powerups. Ready? Go! Here's your host, Ramli John.

    Ramli John [00:01:11] I know typically, podcast is more of a consumer media where you have personalities doing comedy sketches and murder mysteries. But I think in the recent years, B2B reps have really picked it up. Companies like Gong, Salesforce, and even Drift, where they doubled down on using podcasting as a pillar to their content strategy. I'm curious, what are some reasons why B2B brands should be doing podcasts as part of their content strategy?

    Kate DeGroot [00:01:41] B2B companies that really employ podcasting well will see 89% higher awareness of their brand, 57% higher brand consideration, 24% higher brand favorability, 14% higher purchase intent, and 16% higher engagement. I don't know why, if you hear those stats, why you wouldn't want to use podcasting for B2B marketing, but there's also 52 million households that listen to podcasts and how many of those are people who work in your target companies? So yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot to it.

    Ramli John [00:02:25] All those stats make sense. There's the brand loyalty and the engagement, and when people listen to podcasts, there's the stickiness factor. Usually when they start it, they listen all the way through. But even for companies I worked at, there's some hesitancy in the B2B leaders who are like, " Should we do podcasts? Let's stick with what's tried and true: blogging, SEO, maybe a little video." What are some concerns or some pushbacks that you've heard from B2B leaders around starting a podcast, even though when you share the stats, yeah, it makes sense, there's statistics that show it is, but what are some reasons you've heard that B2B leaders say, " Hey, let's not do this," or they're hesitant about it?

    Kate DeGroot [00:03:09] From what I've heard so far, it has been something more like, " We can't prove the value. We can't prove that people are listening to it and we can't attribute that to our pipeline," which is actually where Casted, we've kind of bridged that gap there. We have the ability to grab metrics that no other platform can. And also, move those names, you can see down to a granular level who's listening, and you can see those in your CRM. So we've tried to combat that because we do know that podcasting is such a powerful tool and we want to give these amazing tools to the broader audience, but it comes down to not being able to see what is actually coming of it. And it's a lot. It takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of time to find your guest and record and go have it produced and then break it down into pieces and then market it. It does take a lot of time, but it is so, so worth it.

    Ramli John [00:04:30] In terms of worth it, you're totally right. I think ROI- wise, I think the other thing that I would add to the return on that investment is that it's such a great piece of content that can be repurposed in so many ways. Even at Casted, I see video snippets and podcasts, it can be turned into a newsletter, it can be turned into a blog post, so it really could become a core and a pillar to the content strategy and that that's maybe where the return could be around. Now you even have expert quotes that people in the SEO world loves because there's this credibility there and really does add to that is what I'm also hearing there.

    Kate DeGroot [00:05:13] So I mean, first of all, we have a theory or a methodology that we call amplified marketing, which is breaking down all of the pieces. We take the video content or the podcasting content or even webinars and turn them into podcasts, and then we take those transcripts and we turn them into blog posts.

    Ramli John [00:05:35] Nice.

    Kate DeGroot [00:05:35] We turn them into cornerstone content and then also we will take the key takeaways and post those as social posts to gain awareness and visibility of this podcast that we just put out. So we definitely do that. But then, yeah, the SEO side of it, that's so important and I think so many people don't recognize that podcasting can be so great for your SEO and your discoverability. We have some good friends over at DemandJump in Indianapolis. They specialize in pillar- based marketing, so you're making this one pillar page. It's such a long page, but you're using your top keywords that you want to be found for, but you're using them throughout this piece, and you can do that in your podcast as well. And if you have a really good hosting site, you should be able to use those keywords in there as well. Obviously, then when you use your transcription, those keywords are available in there and it's such a great tool. I love podcasting. I love SEO and podcasting. It's so exciting, where we're moving right in this content- led approach.

    Ramli John [00:06:53] I love that. I really love how one of the challenges for podcasts is discoverability. With YouTube, there's the search engine. With text, there's the Google Search and other search engines. Podcasts is a little bit harder and it's a little bit fragmented. I love that there's this approach that you're taking with all your content and creating a pillar piece around it. What are some results that they've seen around using this approach where cutting up the pieces, using that amplified marketing approach that you mentioned, and then creating a pillar piece around it?

    Kate DeGroot [00:07:31] We work with them because we want to be page one all the time, and actually, their podcast is called Page One or Bust.

    Ramli John [00:07:37] I love it.

    Kate DeGroot [00:07:38] And it's hosted by Casted, so I would totally listen to that, but that's the important part. I have a whole list of keywords that I want Casted to be found for, and that can be really difficult in just your basic blog post. Instead, I'm saying I want to be found for B2B podcasting. It's a whole new category that we have to create, and that's a challenge in and of itself. So creating these pillar pages and then the supporting pillars that I'll link back with linking them to your podcast and linking to the other blog posts and then linking to the embeds, actually, that you're putting in your blog post. It really does boost your discoverability. Google really seems to this methodology.

    Ramli John [00:08:33] I love that. I totally love that. I want to go back to the ROI piece that you mentioned around podcasting. Your team at Casted has created this B2B Podcast Maturity Curve that kind of outlines like a step of a B2B brand as they progress through starting a podcast and using that as that pillar, as the amplified piece of content that's really content- led. What is this B2B Podcast Maturity Curve and the stages that's involved in it?

    Kate DeGroot [00:09:09] Drawing from our own experience with our customers over the last four years, we've created this Maturity Curve to communicate with the market about the five stages that go into, really, brand adoption through podcasting. So you have stage one, which is channel experimentation. It's really just having this idea. We are going to play with this, see what it's like. It's not necessarily having the tools quite yet. And then we have stage two, which is show creation, and that's where you start investing in a good microphone. That's where you start investing in a good pair of headphones.

    Ramli John [00:09:54] A studio? Right, it's true.

    Kate DeGroot [00:09:54] Yeah, yeah. That's where you go from possibly recording on Zoom to using Riverside or another tool very much like that. And then we get into stage three, which is usually the bottleneck of the entire Maturity Curve. This is audience growth. Everybody wants to have a big audience, but they don't know how to do it. They don't know what to do with it once they achieve that audience that they dream of. So this is where production becomes really, really important. This is where SEO starts to become really, really important, and this is where you have to learn about who your audience is. No longer can you make assumptions about who they are. You have to have the data and you have to know what attracts them, what episodes, what part of the episodes they're listening to and going back to, and you almost need a heat map really to be able to see that. But that's the biggest piece. And then once you can break through stage three, you hit stage four, which is multichannel expansion, and this is where you absolutely just blow up. This is also where your podcast is no longer just a podcast; it's part of your brand and it becomes synonymous with your brand really. And then there's one more. There's one more, and there actually may be two. We've been talking about as we're learning more about our customers and where they're going, but then you move on to five, which is marketing, amplification, and revenue. And this is where people come to you as the industry leader, as the subject subject matter expert. And this is where your leads come from. This is where those hot leads will come from. And you're going to have your CTAs in this, and really, you should have CTAs throughout all of your podcasts, but this is where it becomes really, really important and you're driving revenue with your podcast.

    Ramli John [00:12:17] I love that, that it's not just impressions, it's not just like listens. You actually want to drive towards that end goal. For a lot of marketing teams, a lot of leaders of B2B, it's that how do we get the people who are listening to this to eventually be interested in us, sign up for a demo or sign up for a free trial and finally become a customer? And that's essentially what that curve is leading towards is what I'm hearing with this.

    Kate DeGroot [00:12:48] Exactly, exactly. And this is the same methodology that we use. Actually, Cheetah Digital, they are one of our clients and we do a lot of interviews with our clients just to find out how things are going, grab some swipeable content from them, some swipeable language, always listening to Caitlyn and taking her ideas and putting them into practice. So when we were having that conversation with him and he was talking about our videograms and our audiograms and how to find the right audience, I think he said something like, " It's not about getting in front of 10, 000 people to make a sale. It's about getting in front of the right 10 people."

    Ramli John [00:13:34] I love that.

    Kate DeGroot [00:13:34] And that is so, so true. They saw some crazy outcomes. We're talking in the millions of dollars range. They saw some crazy outcomes from following the amplified marketing methodology and the B2B Podcast Maturity Curve. So we know it works, and it's something that we actually are setting out to teach our customers and people who aren't our customers. We just really want to get this out there because B2B podcasting is going to be huge over the next 10 years, and we've done the research and we've seen some of these numbers and we're all about getting in right now.

    Ramli John [00:14:17] Before I continue, I want to thank the sponsor for this episode, 42/ Agency. Now, when you're in scale- up growth mode and you have to hit your KPIs, the pressure is on to deliver demos and signups, and it's a lot to handle. There's demand gen, email sequences, rev ops, and more, and that's where 42/ Agency, founded by my good friend Kamil Rextin, can help you. They're a strategic partner that's helped B2B SaaS companies like ProfitWell, Teamwork, Sprout Social, and Hubdoc to build a predictable revenue engine. If you're looking for performance experts and creatives to solve your marketing growth problems today and help you build the foundations for the future, look no further and visit 42agency. com and talk to a strategist right now to learn how you can build a high- efficiency revenue engine, or you can also find that link in the show notes and description. I want to thank the sponsor for this episode with Casted. Now B2B brands that have a podcast close deals 30% faster than those that don't, but with tight marketing budget and increasing competitions of other shows on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, how do you prove and maximize your podcast and video ROI? That's where Casted comes in. It's a podcast video and audio marketing platform for B2B brands to grow your audience and significantly impact the bottom line. Match your podcast audience with known contacts in your CRM so that you can uncover actual brands interested in your content and a huge key for your customers. You can also get one- click clips, auto transcription, listener intel, and the best customer experience you've ever had. Leading B2B brands like Salesforce, Gong, Drift, and IBM trust Casted to maximize the value of their content and amplify it across their channels. You can request a demo right now for Casted at casted. us or find that link in the description. Well, let's get back to the episode. I love that. I really love what you said, that person said that it's not about getting 10, 000 listens, and often, that is a false metric to follow or a vanity metric to follow for B2B brands. That's probably more of a consumer thing where they're trying to get ad space where the more listeners you have, the more valuable your podcast is. But for B2B brands, a few handful, you mentioned 10, just 10 good ones is enough to close a deal that could be worth, like you mentioned, millions of dollars is exactly what I'm hearing here and I just want to reiterate that. Would you say that this approach is probably more for higher annual contract value products versus ones that are more lower price like Canva or more... $ 10 a month, you probably would need a little bit more listeners to close with that rather than, let's say, a product that costs like$ 10, 000 a year.

    Kate DeGroot [00:17:06] Our customers tend to have products that have a higher ECV, but companies like Canva, they have a lot to say. They have a lot of knowledge to share, and I could definitely see them doing quite well with this, getting those social shares, getting the engagement, oh my gosh, and just think about all of the videograms that they could be putting out there on LinkedIn with new techniques, just teaching. That's part of what we do as B2B marketers. We're out here trying to teach our audience not just about our product, but how to do their jobs better and more efficiently. So honestly, I think it would work for both sides.

    Ramli John [00:17:57] That makes sense. Even you mentioned that they have something to say. I think that's super important nowadays with a lot of the stuff that Google's been updating where they're putting a lot more emphasis on the ones that have an opinion, something that even AI can't write even though we have AI. You probably can get a generic opinion or blog post, but somebody who has an opinion or a point of view in the market, that's something that you can really embed in your podcast and interview people who are doing that. We've seen Drift really do that with conversational marketing and Gong really do that with revenue intelligence where they're owning a piece of work, and that's exactly what I'm hearing with this is that it's not just content exactly, but potentially a thought leadership play that could really help you close deal faster because now they know you for that term is exactly what I'm hearing.

    Kate DeGroot [00:18:52] Oh, yeah, absolutely. And then also with ChatGPT, there is so much more written content that is just making so much noise in our normal channels that we go to, and that's where podcasting is absolutely wonderful. You're getting your real, authentic voice out there, and really, as we have millennials moving up into higher management roles, that's really what this whole generation is looking for: authenticity, being real. It's huge and it's only going to become more important over time. So yeah, we've got to break through that noise. We've got to get our really valid opinions and points of view out there and I feel like the only way to do that is video and audio content.

    Ramli John [00:19:48] Interesting. That's so true. I think people want to see... I forgot who said it, I think it's Peep from Wynter where he said that the top most- followed brands or companies or people in LinkedIn and TikTok, 90% of them are faces. They're people, they're brands, and the people follow people. They don't necessarily follow brands and putting a face in front of a brand humanizes that brand, whether that's a voice through audio, but you mentioned video as well where now you're seeing a real person that they know you, they can attach Kate and Casted or Ramli with Marketing Powerups or Devin with, it used to be Gong but now it's Clari, things like that. It really humanizes the brand with having an audio and video podcast is what I'm hearing.

    Kate DeGroot [00:20:42] Absolutely, yeah.

    Ramli John [00:20:44] I want to talk a little bit more about your process. You mentioned earlier that you take a podcast, take the transcript, turn it into a blog post. Can you share a little bit more about that amplification process or where you're thinking that audio or video content and then breaking it up? What do you do specifically for a Casted show or clients or customers of Casted and what you advise them to do with their show?

    Kate DeGroot [00:21:14] Yeah. So being a digital marketer, my way is a little bit different, but if we took this recording from today and uploaded it into Casted, all of it would be there. We'd have our premium transcription service write out everything, just everything. And then usually my content guy will go ahead and take that transcript and turn it into a blog. He won't just put, " Kate said this and then Ramli said this," and he won't just do that, but he'll take all of these ideas in the order, in the flow that we're doing this, and he will turn it into something just really, really useful, really great long- form content. And then from there, we're probably going to have at least three different topics that we start talking about. So we'll break those down into our key takeaways. And so then he'll write blog posts about those three key takeaways that all link back into that first initial long- form content. And then basically, we do the same thing with the actual video and audio content. So you can go into Casted and you can say, " Okay, this is that first key takeaway," highlight in our transcript exactly where that is, where it starts, where it ends, and instantly you've just created a clip, right? And so you'll create a couple of those, maybe export them as a videogram with a custom frame, something really, really pretty that shows your brand, and collect all of those. And then when you are ready to go ahead and show the world what you've created, that is when you do that little teaser the day before. I think we've all seen that where we're already thanking the guest. And then you can even put your little teaser intro video up there to get everybody excited and get that buzz going. And then you put out your podcast and you go through all the major RSS channels and it's out there, it's alive, but nobody really knows about it unless you're sending out that newsletter. And a lot of times, we use embedded video or audio in there to get everybody enticed to go over and listen to the actual podcast, but then also, use those video and audiograms to go ahead and find more people. Put them in the groups on LinkedIn that you know your target is hanging out in. Put them on social, put them everywhere you possibly can. We actually have a TikTok frame now.

    Ramli John [00:24:12] I was going to say that or ask that about TikTok. Nice.

    Kate DeGroot [00:24:15] Yeah, yeah. So now you can export for TikTok and you can fuel your content strategy on TikTok. So now, you just have this entire content calendar just jampacked with so many different pieces from one podcast. It's crazy. It's absolutely crazy. But then also, from there, you need to be looking at all of your metrics and all of your data and how do you actually measure what's happening on Spotify, on Apple Podcasts, on all of these other players that are not necessarily the one that you're uploading to? And so that's something that we built because we had that question too. My CEO was a VP of marketing at a global company and she built their first podcast and she came into that issue. She had to prove that people, not just coming to the one player that they had on their website, but also at Spotify, Apple Podcasts, what their consumption was actually like. So we built that because of her need, but it's so, so critical to growing your podcast and especially in the ways of breaking it up. Most people don't know this, but we actually can get the data from those clips and we put it in your dashboard, and those clips can be anywhere, but we get data from Spotify. We know more than just how many downloads you've had. We know firmographic and we know psychographic data because they hold onto all of that information in their databases and we're one of the lucky few that gets to access that and share it with our customers to help them make better data- driven decisions.

    Ramli John [00:26:28] I really love what you just mentioned. It's exactly what I see happening is that people don't realize how powerful an audio or video podcast is in terms of fueling a content calendar where one piece of content can help you last for a month. And now if you're doing a weekly show, if you do a series where it's only a season with only 10 episodes, you're probably good for six months. And I think that's the power of this is continually repurposing it into different formats is one way that you can increase your reach, but also see that impact that you mentioned, how you're pulling on the data and pulling it into Casted, make sure that there's impact there. I love it. Thank you for sharing this. I actually want to shift gears and talk about career powerups. You've been in marketing now for over 15 years and I'm curious, what's a career powerup that's helped you accelerate your career, that's helped you level- up and go forward and become a better marketer than you were previously?

    Kate DeGroot [00:27:36] Never stop learning. That has been something that has been huge for me. I remember when I started learning about PLG and that's when I found out about you and now I have my certification and I've helped a company go from sales- led to product- led. Now they're doing fantastic. It's great. But never stop learning and never ever, ever, ever say, " That's not my job."

    Ramli John [00:28:03] Right, that's so good.

    Kate DeGroot [00:28:04] Because at some point in some way, it is, and you're also going to learn how to apply whatever it is to marketing, and especially if it's in your company, maybe it's a question that you have to answer for your CX team, but now you know what questions you need to address in your marketing to reduce those objections that may be coming in.

    Ramli John [00:28:34] I really love that around never stop learning. And actually, that's how we met, for people who were tuning in when I was with inaudible ProductLed. I don't remember how we connected. Was it Twitter or LinkedIn? You reached out or I reached out. It was a while back, but you ended up joining ProductLed's course and I was leading that course at that time. That's how he actually met was you pursuing that desire to learn more about product- led growth and now you've helped the company around that. That's pretty awesome.

    Kate DeGroot [00:29:05] Yeah. And then also, that was about the time that you were writing your book on onboarding, product- led onboarding, and I was one of your pre- readers on that as well.

    Ramli John [00:29:17] Thank you.

    Kate DeGroot [00:29:18] And even my company now, I've shared that book with them and we're employing your strategies in there as well.

    Ramli John [00:29:27] Thank you so much for that plug. It's always really hard for me to plug myself, shameless plug, but I appreciate that.

    Kate DeGroot [00:29:34] No problem. Glad I could help!

    Ramli John [00:29:35] Yeah. Even though a few people tuning on this via video, there's a picture of the book up on my left shoulder, but I thank you. I appreciate you, Kate, for providing that feedback. I want to ask you one last question around an advice you'd give your younger self. If you can go back in time or send a message through time 15 years ago to that Kate who's just starting out in marketing, what advice would you give? And it could be around career, could be around marketing, could be around life. What one or two pieces of advice would you give that younger Kate?

    Kate DeGroot [00:30:08] Oh my gosh. Wow, I could go all day on this one, but everything... Your instincts are right. Don't let anyone tell you that your instincts aren't correct. And then, oh my gosh, what else that is safe for podcasting? It was quite a struggle to get where I'm at today and I had to push and I had to push really hard to get where I'm at. But something that I had to learn was do it with kindness and do it with respect. But don't let people tell you that your ideas aren't good enough because they are and they are going to do some spectacular things for your life.

    Ramli John [00:31:11] Nice. I like the first one as well. Trust your instincts. I think it applies to career, it applies to relationships, it applies to in terms of what marketing campaigns you should run. I was talking to Eddie Shleyner about this. He's from Very Good Copy and as you consume content, you have this, he called it Spidey sense in the marketing sense where you're, whether it's... It could be a good or bad thing where your sense is telling you this is the right path versus this is not the right path. And once again, it could apply to a job, red flags, you walk away, or a campaign. It's like how it just feels... You don't have the data to back it up necessarily, but you have a feeling that this is going to make an impact around your work and people around you.

    Kate DeGroot [00:32:09] And actually, that was my biggest growth point. I was working for actually my alma mater back in Illinois, and I had absolutely no data to work with on digital marketing. I was the first person in the digital marketing seat and I was designing everything. I had no idea what I was doing, which here's another one, do it anyway. There's another piece of advice.

    Ramli John [00:32:33] That's good, yeah.

    Kate DeGroot [00:32:34] But I had no data and I actually came up with one of those unicorn campaigns and that was the year that this university went from all- time record low enrollment to all- time record high enrollment and it's just one of those things I was like, " This is going to be so good," and it was, but I had nothing that would lead me to that.

    Ramli John [00:32:57] Well, that was a fun chat. If you want to learn more about Casted, you can go to or you can follow Kate on LinkedIn and Twitter. All of those links are in the show notes and description down below. Thank you to Kate for being on the show. If you enjoyed this episode, you'd love the Marketing Powerups newsletter where I share the actionable takeaways and break down the frameworks of world- class marketers. Go to marketingpowerups. com, subscribe, and you'll instantly unlock the three best frameworks that pop marketers use to hit their KPIs consistently and wow their colleagues. I want to say thank you to you for listening and please like and follow Marketing Powerups on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, and Spotify. If you're feeling extra generous, leave a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify or leave a comment on YouTube. It goes a long way in others finding out about Marketing Powerups. Thanks to Mary Sullivan for creating the artwork and design and thank you to Phycel Kygo for editing the intro video. And of course, thank you for listening. That's all for now. Have a powered- up day.

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      Ramli John is the founder of Marketing Powerups and author of the bestselling book Product-Led Onboarding. He's worked with companies such as Appcues, Mixpanel, and Ubisoft to accelerate their growth.

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