Brooklin Nash's expert-driven content strategy

[00:00:00] Ramli John: Tall leadership content has become such a buzzword.

[00:00:02] Ramli John: And Brooklin Nash, founder of Beam Content, believes it should be a key piece of any content strategy rather than tall leadership.

[00:00:09] Ramli John: He calls it expert driven content because it leverages the wisdom of industry and company experts to create truly impactful content.

[00:00:16] Ramli John: In this Marketing Pops episode, you learn first, the essence of expert driven content.

[00:00:20] Ramli John: Second, the role of cross departmental collaboration and content creation.

[00:00:25] Ramli John: Third, the future of AI content creation and fourth, impact of optimistic ignorance in Brooklin's career.

[00:00:31] Strategizing Content with Brooklin Nash: Free Powerups Cheat Sheet

[00:00:31] Ramli John: Before I start, I've created a free powerups cheat sheet.

[00:00:34] Ramli John: You can download, fill in and apply Brooklin's expert driven content strategy.

[00:00:38] Ramli John: You can find that marketing powerups.com or find the link in the description and show notes.

[00:00:42] Ramli John: You ready?

[00:00:43] Ramli John: Let's go.

[00:00:44] Ramli John: Marketing powerups ready.

[00:00:49] Ramli John: Go.

[00:00:52] Ramli John: Here's your host, Ramli.

[00:00:55] Brooklin Nash on Expert Driven Content and the Impact of AI

[00:00:55] Ramli John: John, when we were chatting, when you shared what you wanted to talk about, you were saying like, hey, you know, instead of calling it thought leadership content, we should talk about it being expert driven content.

[00:01:07] Ramli John: And I feel like that kind of clarifies a lot of things about it because when people think about thought leaders, they think about, I'm not sure, Mr.

[00:01:14] Ramli John: Beast or something else.

[00:01:17] Ramli John: But I'm curious why that resonates with marketers, with you more than expert driven content, more than thought leadership content.

[00:01:28] Brooklin Nash: I think because thought leadership is a buzzword at this point that's kind of lost its meaning in a couple of ways.

[00:01:36] Brooklin Nash: Number one, people throw throw stuff out there and call it thought leadership when it doesn't really have any business being thought leadership.

[00:01:44] Brooklin Nash: It's not in depth, it's not adding a new insight or perspective.

[00:01:49] Brooklin Nash: It's just kind of regurgitating stuff, right?

[00:01:53] Brooklin Nash: Like just because it's on Forbes doesn't mean it's good.

[00:01:59] Brooklin Nash: You can pay your way onto the Forbes Council.

[00:02:04] Brooklin Nash: It's like a 700 word article that adds nothing to the conversation, right?

[00:02:09] Brooklin Nash: That's not to say there isn't Forbes content.

[00:02:11] Brooklin Nash: That's great, it's just not exclusively so anyway.

[00:02:15] Brooklin Nash: So that's one side of it.

[00:02:17] Brooklin Nash: Calling it thought leadership doesn't make it thought leadership.

[00:02:20] Brooklin Nash: And I think the other side is people hear thought leadership and all of a sudden think at the 5000 foot level.

[00:02:29] Brooklin Nash: Like it has to be this broad overarching view of the industry space, this category, this is what we're changing, this is what's different.

[00:02:42] Brooklin Nash: And that's not necessarily the case.

[00:02:46] Brooklin Nash: You could share a first hand account of how you used AI in your spreadsheets to speed up financial forecasting by five X.

[00:02:59] Brooklin Nash: And if it's unique and nobody's written on that, and given that detailed of a guide, that's thought leadership because you're putting something new into the world, right?

[00:03:07] Brooklin Nash: So I think of thought leadership as taking somebody's actual experience with something, whether they're a product person or a marketer or CFO, and packaging it up into content that people can consume.

[00:03:21] Ramli John: And I feel like that's why expert driven is such a much better word.

[00:03:26] Ramli John: The more I think about it, which I'm going to start using that term.

[00:03:29] Ramli John: You should coin it and you get the domain and start selling courses about.

[00:03:34] Brooklin Nash: I'm going to tell our team that because we've literally had conversations this last month where we're like we like our copy and our positioning, but we're like, we need a phrase, man, and trying out expert driven content.

[00:03:46] Brooklin Nash: So the fact that it landed with you is great.

[00:03:49] Ramli John: Yes.

[00:03:49] Ramli John: Because it kind of challenges what you just mentioned.

[00:03:53] Ramli John: And people are tired of being a thought leader versus expert driven.

[00:03:58] Ramli John: It's driven by experts.

[00:03:59] Ramli John: And I feel like you're talking just about this kind of really emphasizes what kind of content we need to be creating more in the future, especially with AI.

[00:04:10] Ramli John: I feel like those experiences is something that AI can't have unless it starts becoming aware itself.

[00:04:21] Ramli John: This is a personal experience from somebody, and AI can write up those Forbes articles.

[00:04:30] Ramli John: That is like fluff.

[00:04:31] Ramli John: But is that what I'm hearing here?

[00:04:34] Ramli John: I feel like this is going to be more prominent going forward as you see more AI content, this forgiven content.

[00:04:43] Brooklin Nash: Absolutely.

[00:04:44] Brooklin Nash: Yeah.

[00:04:44] Brooklin Nash: We've been talking about that.

[00:04:46] Brooklin Nash: In terms of social PR, SEO content, those are the areas that I think are going to be impacted the most the fastest.

[00:04:54] Brooklin Nash: That's not to knock anybody who works on SEO, because there are still excellent ways you can do it.

[00:05:01] Brooklin Nash: That's not something that chat GPD can replicate.

[00:05:05] Brooklin Nash: But let's be honest, that's the small minority of cases.

[00:05:09] Brooklin Nash: Most of the time it's pumping out content for the sake of getting it up there and ranking.

[00:05:14] Brooklin Nash: And that's something that generative AI is really close to being able to replicate if it's already whereas if you're starting with an interview with your CFO or your engineer or your head of HR, they have unique insights that you're not going to be able to crawl on the Internet.

[00:05:34] Ramli John: Yeah.

[00:05:37] Ramli John: Once again, we're talking about future.

[00:05:41] Ramli John: Maybe there's a world where AI interviews a CFO, which is scary, but on its own, coming up with the question and the framework and the strategy and pulling out the best gems out of people is not in the near.

[00:05:59] Ramli John: I don't know.

[00:06:00] Ramli John: I keep saying near future, but what if quantum computing hits that?

[00:06:04] Ramli John: He can interview people, but still at this moment, it is not something that generative AI can do because pulling out those insights is so important to make something unique.

[00:06:15] Brooklin Nash: Absolutely.

[00:06:16] Brooklin Nash: Yeah.

[00:06:16] Brooklin Nash: And I don't want to be the grumpy old man on his lawn saying that AI will never replace us.

[00:06:23] Brooklin Nash: I understand it's accelerating quickly.

[00:06:27] Ramli John: Right.

[00:06:28] Brooklin Nash: But I think we're at least a few years away from AI being able to replicate that connection and digging into that specific piece of what somebody said and circling back to a certain thing that goes on at interviews.

[00:06:45] Brooklin Nash: Right.

[00:06:47] Expert-Driven Content Creation at Beam

[00:06:47] Ramli John: That makes sense in terms of what this looks like.

[00:06:51] Ramli John: Your team has probably been creating more and more expert driven content, is that correct?

[00:06:57] Ramli John: You would say that.

[00:06:58] Ramli John: That's been the focus lately.

[00:07:02] Ramli John: What does that look like?

[00:07:04] Ramli John: You mentioned interviewing internal subject matter experts and leadership teams, maybe interviewing customers, but how do you create expert driven content?

[00:07:17] Brooklin Nash: Essentially, yeah.

[00:07:19] Brooklin Nash: It's the whole reason we started Beam when we launched last year, we said we're not doing SEO content.

[00:07:26] Brooklin Nash: This is exclusively the type of content we're doing.

[00:07:31] Brooklin Nash: The one exception is case studies, which is still interview driven, but a little more established in content marketing.

[00:07:38] Brooklin Nash: Right?

[00:07:41] Brooklin Nash: Yeah.

[00:07:42] Brooklin Nash: The way we talk about it with potential clients and with our current clients is we can start with interviews, with conversations, or with data, which is a whole separate piece, but we'll also work with platform data or survey data for the expert driven content.

[00:07:59] Brooklin Nash: I think the more conversations I've had, the more I've realized that it's kind of a matter of walking folks through what's possible and what resources they have available to them.

[00:08:11] Brooklin Nash: I think content marketing has been in such a silo for so long that it's like, this is how we work and this is what we work on and we work on the content and then get it over to demand gen to distribute or to sales enablement or whatever.

[00:08:26] Brooklin Nash: But it needs to be this reciprocal process where you're involving sales and customer success and enablement and demand gen and product and product marketing and the leadership team in the input process so that your content is all that much more informed.

[00:08:46] Brooklin Nash: And then the tail end of that is if you're creating the type of content that is going to resonate with the rest of the team and with your audience, the rest of the is going to be a lot more excited about it and be more bought in.

[00:09:00] Brooklin Nash: Right.

[00:09:00] Brooklin Nash: Versus thinking, oh, content is doing its thing over here.

[00:09:03] Brooklin Nash: Demand gen is creating these assets.

[00:09:06] Brooklin Nash: Product marketing is focused on this.

[00:09:08] Brooklin Nash: Sales has its own thing going on.

[00:09:09] Brooklin Nash: It just ties everything together.

[00:09:11] Brooklin Nash: Right.

[00:09:12] Creating Effective Content with Internal and External Subject Matter Experts

[00:09:12] Brooklin Nash: Which kind of got off your original question, but we'll start with internal, like internal SMEs, which can be anybody, honestly, like, if you're selling to engineers, let's start with the engineering team.

[00:09:23] Brooklin Nash: It doesn't have to come from the CPO or CTO.

[00:09:27] Brooklin Nash: If you're selling into HR, if you're selling HR tech, let's start with the people team.

[00:09:33] Brooklin Nash: Often we'll try to bring in the leadership team to bring that conceptual level.

[00:09:37] Brooklin Nash: And then it's not just internal.

[00:09:38] Brooklin Nash: We'll talk to customers and try to turn those conversations into not a typical, here's the problem, here's the solution, here's the outcome case study, but more of like a playbook.

[00:09:48] Brooklin Nash: Like, here's what this customer did that was really unique and really smart.

[00:09:53] Brooklin Nash: And by the way, our product was in the background or the foundation of it, but we're not the star.

[00:09:59] Brooklin Nash: They were the star.

[00:10:00] Brooklin Nash: Others are platform partners.

[00:10:03] Brooklin Nash: It often makes sense to work together on content.

[00:10:06] Brooklin Nash: And then if all else fails or not, even if all else fails, often it makes sense to bring external folks in, those who already are going back to thought leadership who already are thought leaders in their space and bringing them in so that you kind of have that authority built in from the get go.

[00:10:24] Ramli John: Interesting.

[00:10:24] Ramli John: That makes a lot of sense.

[00:10:25] Ramli John: I like how you're figuring out exactly what talking to different people inside first, and if it's an HR talk to the People team.

[00:10:34] Ramli John: Do you come in with concept already, like a topic, or it's just like it's blank page, I just want to talk to you.

[00:10:42] Ramli John: I want to hear your problems.

[00:10:44] Ramli John: I want to understand exactly what kind of challenges your target audience when you're talking to those internal subject matter experts or you already have blog outline and a brief and things like that, which might make sense or might not.

[00:11:00] Brooklin Nash: Yeah, so it's both and in different stages.

[00:11:03] Brooklin Nash: So there's kind of three stages.

[00:11:05] Brooklin Nash: Number one, when we're kicking off with a brand new project, we'll spend the first month talking to as many people as we can, essentially internally.

[00:11:14] Brooklin Nash: And that's kind of when it's a blank page.

[00:11:15] Brooklin Nash: We come with questions, but they're very open ended questions.

[00:11:18] Brooklin Nash: Exactly what you're saying, like what problems are you seeing?

[00:11:21] Brooklin Nash: What do you see people get excited about?

[00:11:23] Brooklin Nash: What questions aren't resolved, things like that.

[00:11:26] Brooklin Nash: And if we're able to talk with the product team, PMMS, customer success, demand, gen and leadership, we get a very full picture of their audience and kind of their gaps in content, and then we use that to turn around.

[00:11:42] Brooklin Nash: Okay, here's the three or four themes we recommend covering over the course of this year.

[00:11:47] Brooklin Nash: And here's the specific topics that roll up to those themes.

[00:11:50] Brooklin Nash: And then it's just a matter of mix and match.

[00:11:52] Brooklin Nash: Like, hey, this topic, we have this internal data person that would be great to talk to.

[00:11:56] Brooklin Nash: Oh, this topic.

[00:11:58] Brooklin Nash: Somebody in our VC has a connection with somebody.

[00:12:01] Brooklin Nash: Let's go talk to that person.

[00:12:02] Brooklin Nash: It's just kind of this game of mix and match.

[00:12:04] Brooklin Nash: Once we have the topics, sometimes it goes the other way, where it's talking to a person and pulling out what the main theme want.

[00:12:15] Brooklin Nash: We have a board management software client and it was essentially just talking to them about what matters most to them as being part of a board.

[00:12:23] Brooklin Nash: And the theme kind of naturally emerged.

[00:12:26] Brooklin Nash: Like when we talked to Sam Jacobs, it was so focused on prepping for the board meeting because every founder gets super stressed out or CRO gets super stressed out about board meetings.

[00:12:35] Brooklin Nash: So we just narrow it in there.

[00:12:37] Brooklin Nash: But usually it's, here's the topic, here's our specific questions we want to get into and then pick your brain on, although you avoid using that phrase and come to the call with that.

[00:12:50] Brooklin Nash: And then it just makes it so much more productive.

[00:12:53] Ramli John: That makes sense.

[00:12:54] Discussing Content Team Strategy with Brooklin Nash

[00:12:54] Ramli John: I love how you're doing.

[00:12:56] Ramli John: Discovery phase.

[00:12:57] Ramli John: First we're like, okay, we just want to learn as much as possible.

[00:13:00] Ramli John: What are the problems, what are the challenges, how is your solution better than the competitors?

[00:13:05] Ramli John: What are some that you might have in this space and then before creating those teams and then those teams, I'm guessing, do you base it around the problems that you've heard or solutions or it could be maybe a mix and match.

[00:13:23] Ramli John: How do you figure out the overarching team that would make sense for client?

[00:13:30] Brooklin Nash: Yeah, it's kind of a mix.

[00:13:32] Brooklin Nash: Often it's tied to pain points, which is not unique and I know lots of great content folks do that.

[00:13:40] Brooklin Nash: We'll often kind of try to uncover what goals are for the upcoming year or two.

[00:13:47] Brooklin Nash: Like if they're moving up market, do they want to start talking to the CIO instead of the manager level.

[00:13:53] Brooklin Nash: So that kind of adjusts what we're talking about and how we're talking about it.

[00:13:58] Brooklin Nash: And then we'll also get into individual team goals like demand gen.

[00:14:05] Brooklin Nash: What is the gap, what assets do you need to put out better paid social campaigns and drive capture that demand?

[00:14:13] Brooklin Nash: Right.

[00:14:13] Brooklin Nash: Or are you more in brand awareness right now and you just want to make your voice known on this particular topic and what your stance is.

[00:14:21] Brooklin Nash: So just digging into that across the teams and then ideally narrowing those down to no more than four themes that we can kind of beat that same drum from a lot of different angles.

[00:14:34] Ramli John: Once again, I love this whole process because you say, hey, other teams get this but I'm surprised that they don't do enough of this.

[00:14:43] Ramli John: Just like finding and talking internally and highlighting the expertise that people have within internally already.

[00:14:52] Ramli John: And then you're figuring out their goals like how can content team help out demand gen or sales enablement or another thing?

[00:15:00] Ramli John: And you're really trying to figure out essentially they're the content team's customer in some sense, right.

[00:15:11] Ramli John: You're helping them do their job better essentially with that is what I'm hearing, yeah.

[00:15:16] Brooklin Nash: And vice versa.

[00:15:17] Brooklin Nash: It goes both ways.

[00:15:19] Brooklin Nash: By talking to them you can make better content and by creating better content that makes their job better and easier.

[00:15:27] Ramli John: I feel like the other benefit to this approach is that it opens up that wall.

[00:15:32] Ramli John: I feel like sometimes, especially with remote teams, the quantity might have never have ever talked to somebody from CS or from Sales or from engineering in this way.

[00:15:45] Ramli John: Now the door is open and if they hear of an idea there's already the relationship built up where know, hey Ramley or hey Brooklin.

[00:15:56] Ramli John: Like wouldn't it be cool this idea and like that kind of I guess getting input more is actually conducive of creativity and innovation, would you say?

[00:16:07] Brooklin Nash: Yeah, definitely.

[00:16:08] Brooklin Nash: It again kind of breaks down that silo so that you're not just beating your head against the wall trying to think of things in a vacuum.

[00:16:19] Brooklin Nash: You can kind of constantly get new ideas based off of those conversations.

[00:16:23] Brooklin Nash: And often from one conversation we'll get another conversation or two more conversation.

[00:16:28] Brooklin Nash: It just kind of snowballs.

[00:16:30] Brooklin Nash: Creative snowball.

[00:16:31] Discussing the Sponsor 42 Agency and their contributions

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[00:17:17] Ramli John: Thank you also to the sponsor for this episode.

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[00:17:59] Brooklin Nash Discusses the Challenges and Considerations in Collaborating with Different Business Departments

[00:17:59] Ramli John: Well, let's get back to this episode.

[00:18:03] Ramli John: I love that.

[00:18:04] Ramli John: Have you ever had a situation where somebody's goal kind of conflicts with another goal?

[00:18:10] Ramli John: Where Demand Gen is like, we need more leads, and then the brand is like, no, we need to focus on building up our awareness and do more.

[00:18:20] Ramli John: I'm not sure.

[00:18:21] Ramli John: I'm curious if your team has ever been in a situation where you've talked to different teams and they all say, hey, focus on this, Brooklin, focus on.

[00:18:31] Brooklin Nash: This, and they're like different, almost entirely different things.

[00:18:36] Brooklin Nash: Yeah, we try to uncover that in the discovery process.

[00:18:39] Brooklin Nash: I mean, before starting the project, the actual sales discovery process, and make sure there's buy in from leadership to Demand Gen to whoever our main point of contact is.

[00:18:49] Brooklin Nash: So ideally, we're not running into that extreme of a case.

[00:18:55] Brooklin Nash: But it does happen where Demand Gen obviously has not one goal, but they have a very different goal than brand, which is a very different goal than customer success.

[00:19:08] Brooklin Nash: And I think the way we explain it and the way we try to work through it and hopefully this doesn't sound like bliss or Cliche or something, but we really do try to create the kind of content that can be just as helpful for customer marketing as it is for lead generation.

[00:19:27] Ramli John: I like that.

[00:19:28] Ramli John: Yeah.

[00:19:28] Brooklin Nash: Like if you're talking about a specific use case or a new idea for integrating different tools, that can be really exciting for capturing demand, especially in retargeting if they are aware and are in the education stage.

[00:19:42] Brooklin Nash: Right, but it can also be really helpful for customer marketing because you're sending out resources and increasing the chance of upsell and renewal because you're showing them what's possible with the tool that they're currently using.

[00:19:55] Brooklin Nash: Right.

[00:19:56] Brooklin Nash: And then same for sales, kind of in the middle.

[00:19:58] Brooklin Nash: If they have more resources to share out with prospects, the better.

[00:20:02] Brooklin Nash: I will say though, the first thing I thought of, it's been a while, but a couple of years ago, going through this process, we don't work directly with founders as much anymore.

[00:20:11] Brooklin Nash: But it was two co founders and we got on separate calls with them and asked very similar questions and they gave very different answers.

[00:20:21] Ramli John: Are you guys co fathers even?

[00:20:23] Brooklin Nash: Yeah, you talk to each mean hopefully it was like a value add because we just in the recap, we said, hey, listen, Steve said this and Frank said this.

[00:20:37] Brooklin Nash: They sound very different to us.

[00:20:38] Brooklin Nash: So can we get into like, what are we actually saying?

[00:20:41] Brooklin Nash: So it uncovered something for them that I don't think they were even aware of.

[00:20:46] Ramli John: Yeah, that makes that type of sense.

[00:20:50] Brooklin Nash: That's crazy.

[00:20:53] Ramli John: It's interesting why you mentioned that.

[00:20:55] Ramli John: I actually talked to Brendan Hufford as well, where he doesn't work with founders anymore.

[00:21:03] Ramli John: It's like you mentioned something, you just mentioned something similar.

[00:21:06] Ramli John: Now I'm curious.

[00:21:08] Ramli John: Maybe it's because they want everything all at once now, or they don't really know what they want.

[00:21:15] Ramli John: I'm curious what the reasoning is for not working directly with founders versus you have more a fleshed out team.

[00:21:22] Ramli John: Each of the teams know what they need, what they want.

[00:21:25] Ramli John: They have KPIs versus Founders.

[00:21:27] Ramli John: They want all the KPIs to move up to the right, which that's not always possible.

[00:21:33] Brooklin Nash: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:21:35] Brooklin Nash: For us, I think it's because we don't consider ourselves a full service agency.

[00:21:41] Brooklin Nash: I mean, there's a lot we don't do.

[00:21:43] Brooklin Nash: We focus on the handful of things that we think we're really good at.

[00:21:47] Brooklin Nash: And when you're that early stage, it's not because we don't like working with founders or don't want to work with founders.

[00:21:52] Brooklin Nash: It's because if you're that early stage, you kind of need a little bit of everything to get the ball rolling.

[00:21:59] Brooklin Nash: And we don't do SEO, we do social content, but not social management.

[00:22:04] Brooklin Nash: We don't do email marketing, we don't do copywriting.

[00:22:07] Brooklin Nash: So more and more I'm finding myself referring those earlier stage companies out to either consultants who can be that jack of all trades and figure out the right way to Divide and Conquer or SEO agencies.

[00:22:20] Brooklin Nash: Because I'm like, look, we don't work on an SEO.

[00:22:23] Brooklin Nash: I recognize it is really important, especially at your price point.

[00:22:26] Brooklin Nash: Like, if you're self service and you're at $80 a month, SEO makes a lot more sense than if you're doing six figure deals with a CIO.

[00:22:35] Brooklin Nash: So there's like a specific type of project that we work on, and I just don't want us to over promise something that is really not our specialty.

[00:22:45] Ramli John: That makes sense.

[00:22:46] Ramli John: That makes sense.

[00:22:46] Ramli John: In a sense.

[00:22:49] Ramli John: Followers can be sometimes fickle where I'm over generalizing it, but I work with founders where they see something cool next and be like, let's do that.

[00:22:59] Ramli John: They finally like, oh, let's do more AI.

[00:23:01] Ramli John: Or I'm not entirely sure, but at least in this case, you have approach.

[00:23:07] Ramli John: You have some people that have KPIs.

[00:23:10] Ramli John: They're working towards essentially yeah.

[00:23:12] Brooklin Nash: Avoiding that shiny object syndrome.

[00:23:14] Brooklin Nash: We're looking to work with teams.

[00:23:16] Brooklin Nash: Our ideal is either head of product marketing or head of content marketing.

[00:23:21] Brooklin Nash: Whether it's VP or director, it doesn't really matter.

[00:23:23] Brooklin Nash: Just somebody who's enabled and equipped to set the strategy for at least the quarter, if not the year, and move forward with that rather than shifting focus every six weeks or every day, which.

[00:23:41] Ramli John: I've been a situation that's absolutely crazy situation.

[00:23:46] Brooklin Nash: It happens.

[00:23:47] Brooklin Nash: Yeah.

[00:23:48] Discussion on the Importance of Expert Driven Content in Business

[00:23:48] Ramli John: This brings up this question where I'm curious what your thoughts are on when a company or team is ready to start doing expert driven content.

[00:23:57] Ramli John: Or maybe it's like a dumb question where you can do it from the very beginning of your company, where you focus on expert driven content and that's all you focus on, especially with people in SEO.

[00:24:10] Ramli John: Have been talking a lot about how things will change for SEO.

[00:24:16] Ramli John: That question.

[00:24:17] Ramli John: I'm just curious what your thoughts are and take us out of that.

[00:24:19] Ramli John: When is it the right time to start focusing on driven content?

[00:24:24] Brooklin Nash: Yeah, this might sound self serving, but I think as early as possible.

[00:24:29] Brooklin Nash: Going back to what we were saying at the beginning, thought leadership is not having this some line in the sand that you're trying to be grandiose about.

[00:24:39] Brooklin Nash: It's just sharing what you see in the market, or what you see in your product, or what you see users doing, or what you are working on.

[00:24:46] Brooklin Nash: That can all be thought leadership.

[00:24:47] Brooklin Nash: Right?

[00:24:49] Brooklin Nash: I think it depends on levels of priority.

[00:24:53] Brooklin Nash: Again, we're not an SEO agency, but I do think there are instances where it does make a lot more sense to start with SEO because it's just a lot more direct.

[00:25:05] Brooklin Nash: And it's not about brand building or building trust necessarily.

[00:25:08] Brooklin Nash: It's just about getting visitors and leads from that organic channel.

[00:25:13] Brooklin Nash: Right.

[00:25:14] Brooklin Nash: But I think ideally, you can do both.

[00:25:17] Brooklin Nash: And I think maybe the best example I can think of is expert driven content internally, very early is Lavender Will and Will, the two Wills co founders.

[00:25:30] Brooklin Nash: There it's been a few years now.

[00:25:35] Brooklin Nash: 90% of the time what they're talking about is Cold email.

[00:25:38] Brooklin Nash: How do I send better cold emails?

[00:25:40] Brooklin Nash: And they are so good at talking about it and have such unique insights because of their own experience and because of their product.

[00:25:48] Brooklin Nash: And I think they're just like known as the Cold email team now.

[00:25:55] Brooklin Nash: Even as they brought on more content folks, it's just helped not just their brand, but their demand, at least from what I can tell from the outside.

[00:26:04] Ramli John: That makes sense when the founders are experts in that space because they can really position their company and themselves.

[00:26:11] Ramli John: It's like, hey, this example, we are the experts on this.

[00:26:16] Ramli John: And if you're thinking about this topic, there is no other place to take a look at it.

[00:26:20] Ramli John: Essentially, it's what that example shows.

[00:26:24] Brooklin Nash: Exactly.

[00:26:25] Brooklin Nash: Yeah, I love talking to either technical founders or somebody who has deep experience in the target audience they're selling into.

[00:26:36] Brooklin Nash: Those aren't necessarily always the same thing, but it just brings another layer of level of depth.

[00:26:44] Impact of AI & SEO on Content with Brooklin Nash

[00:26:44] Ramli John: I know you're talking a little bit about SEO.

[00:26:47] Ramli John: I'm curious what your take is on that.

[00:26:52] Ramli John: Do you have any takes on AI and content and SEO and maybe more self serving around why X might be more important in the future and why people should be thinking about it.

[00:27:04] Ramli John: But I'm curious.

[00:27:05] Ramli John: You've been neck deep in content for so many years and you must have a position on, hey, SEO and AI and then content.

[00:27:18] Ramli John: Like, what is your take on that?

[00:27:20] Brooklin Nash: Yeah, you're going to hear me workshopping this because I'm still trying to figure out that's cool, the right answer that doesn't sound self serving or like head in the sand.

[00:27:31] Brooklin Nash: This is not happening.

[00:27:33] Brooklin Nash: Because look, I've been in content for like ten years.

[00:27:36] Brooklin Nash: The first five of that was pretty much all SEO.

[00:27:40] Brooklin Nash: So I know SEO and I get its value and I get that you can get pretty quick results with it.

[00:27:47] Brooklin Nash: Like two startups ago, we went from basically zero traffic to like 15,000.

[00:27:54] Brooklin Nash: And because we are a self service tool with a pretty low price point, it just helped grow the revenue so quickly.

[00:28:02] Brooklin Nash: And that was almost all SEO with a little bit of dabbling in organic social anyway, so I get its value, I don't know.

[00:28:14] Brooklin Nash: So from the client perspective, I think it will continue to be valuable because even if search is replaced with a barred response, google's an ad business, so they're going to figure out how to show ads.

[00:28:34] Brooklin Nash: Yeah, how to show ads, which is not the same thing as SEO, but I don't think it's going away anytime soon.

[00:28:40] Brooklin Nash: Completely, though, I think it's still worth investing in.

[00:28:45] Brooklin Nash: That said, I don't think it's as worth investing as people think if you're at a certain deal size or selling to a certain audience.

[00:28:55] Brooklin Nash: Like, CTOs are not googling how to integrate X with Y.

[00:29:01] Brooklin Nash: Like, they're having these much higher level conversations with other CTOs and CIOs about what's happening with this and that.

[00:29:08] Brooklin Nash: Right.

[00:29:08] Brooklin Nash: So why not figure out how to tap into to?

[00:29:10] Brooklin Nash: That's where I'm at.

[00:29:14] Ramli John: That totally makes sense.

[00:29:15] Ramli John: I think that is definitely investing in it.

[00:29:19] Ramli John: Into it in the like, maybe it makes sense, but I'm actually very bullish on more expert joint stuff that is shared outside of search.

[00:29:30] Ramli John: You're talking about?

[00:29:31] Ramli John: That CIO.

[00:29:32] Ramli John: But even now, Eric, our VP of Marketing at Apkis, would share some articles from some other people or Kevin Indig or from other places.

[00:29:45] Ramli John: And that is hard to measure.

[00:29:48] Ramli John: That dark.

[00:29:49] Ramli John: People call it dark social, but expert.

[00:29:52] Brooklin Nash: Driven content walked over here.

[00:29:55] Ramli John: Server driven content is like prime for dark social, would you say?

[00:30:00] Ramli John: Right.

[00:30:01] Brooklin Nash: Absolutely.

[00:30:02] Brooklin Nash: Yeah.

[00:30:03] Brooklin Nash: It's not as measurable or is it measurable?

[00:30:06] Brooklin Nash: But that's the goal.

[00:30:10] Brooklin Nash: If a team is sharing your content around in a Slack channel or CTO is forwarding an email or sharing it on social, that's showing that it's impactful and that it's sticky.

[00:30:24] Brooklin Nash: Yeah, because you're also talking about a lot of stakeholders and a long deal cycle for these types of products.

[00:30:32] Brooklin Nash: So you need it to be sticky.

[00:30:34] Brooklin Nash: You're not going to get a CEO or CMO or CTO or a VP of Data Engineering to land on an article after Googling something and convert that.

[00:30:46] Brooklin Nash: You have to build trust and then retarget and pass to sales so that they can follow up on what they read and dig into a deeper conversation.

[00:30:54] Brooklin Nash: Ideally face to face or at least on a call, just make it really relevant and sticky and long term.

[00:31:03] Ramli John: That makes sense.

[00:31:04] Ramli John: You really love that.

[00:31:05] Brooklin Nash on Measuring Success for Expert-Driven Content

[00:31:05] Ramli John: And then the other thing that's top of mind is how you measure this is totally different from SEO content.

[00:31:12] Ramli John: I imagine SEO content is like organic traffic and then conversion, especially if you have a product that's low price.

[00:31:20] Ramli John: I'm curious how your team is measuring the success of this.

[00:31:25] Ramli John: Is it like how the sales team is using this or CS?

[00:31:28] Ramli John: Or how it's enabling sales cycle?

[00:31:31] Ramli John: Or is it something else that you're looking at?

[00:31:35] Brooklin Nash: Yeah.

[00:31:36] Brooklin Nash: Can I just real quick share a pet peeve?

[00:31:40] Brooklin Nash: You added conversions, but I think often people think about SEO as like traffic.

[00:31:46] Brooklin Nash: But I feel like that's such a vanity metric for SEO because of what you said, conversion.

[00:31:53] Brooklin Nash: Also, what is engagement on the page, which now Google provides that they have engaged sessions, which is awesome.

[00:32:00] Brooklin Nash: Bounce rate.

[00:32:01] Brooklin Nash: I mean, we had a client last year, a couple of years ago that they brought us on to increase their traffic, which was already at 30 or 40,000 hits a month.

[00:32:14] Brooklin Nash: And we were trying to get that up, but then we jumped in and I dug into their metrics.

[00:32:19] Brooklin Nash: Their bounce rate was at like 80, 85%.

[00:32:21] Brooklin Nash: And I'm like, look, you have a ton of content up here.

[00:32:25] Brooklin Nash: Your bounce rate is the highest I've ever seen.

[00:32:28] Brooklin Nash: Let's dig into.

[00:32:28] Brooklin Nash: That first, right?

[00:32:30] Ramli John: Yeah.

[00:32:30] Brooklin Nash: So anyway, that was not your question, but no, let's dig into that little.

[00:32:34] Ramli John: Pet peeve that I that makes sense.

[00:32:36] Brooklin Nash: For measuring what we do and thought leadership, quote unquote or expert driven content.

[00:32:43] Brooklin Nash: It sounds like a cop out, but the way we talk through it with our clients and prospects is, look, it depends on what you do with it.

[00:32:50] Brooklin Nash: Going back to what I said about our ideal is at least a handful of the pieces we're producing each month can be used by a lot of different teams on a lot of different channels in a lot of different ways.

[00:33:03] Brooklin Nash: So this is not like one metric.

[00:33:05] Brooklin Nash: We're looking for, like, number of downloads on a gated asset.

[00:33:10] Brooklin Nash: We're looking at the lift to your organic impressions.

[00:33:14] Brooklin Nash: We're looking at conversion rate if you have a content offer versus a sales related offer for paid search and social.

[00:33:25] Brooklin Nash: We're looking at feedback from customer success and sales and how using those assets are going.

[00:33:32] Brooklin Nash: There's just a lot of different ways to measure it when you're creating something that ideally sits at the center of your public voice rather than just being a tiny little piece of it.

[00:33:42] Ramli John: Yeah, that totally makes sense.

[00:33:43] Ramli John: I think we've been talking about that quite a bit around making that the central piece of helping the whole other pieces of the company.

[00:33:53] Ramli John: You gave the example with Lavender.

[00:33:55] Creating Engaging Content with Beam

[00:33:55] Ramli John: I'm curious if there's any other examples that you can give out, maybe even some of the work that your team has done in terms of examples that I can share around content.

[00:34:09] Brooklin Nash: Yeah.

[00:34:10] Brooklin Nash: What's the best one here?

[00:34:13] Brooklin Nash: We work with an analytics company, a product, and I feel like we've done this.

[00:34:23] Brooklin Nash: They're fully bought in and have fantastic ideas.

[00:34:25] Brooklin Nash: Just don't say, like, we did this, but we've been able to work on things with them that I think get at this concept.

[00:34:31] Brooklin Nash: So, for example, one thing we worked on with is they had their annual event, which usually would just kind of live there.

[00:34:39] Brooklin Nash: Like, this is for customers and bottom funnel prospects, and we're just leaving it as the live event.

[00:34:47] Brooklin Nash: But they shared so much from that.

[00:34:50] Brooklin Nash: They shared all the scripts and the recordings and the customers that shared.

[00:34:55] Brooklin Nash: And we were able to take that one day event and turn it into so many different assets.

[00:35:02] Brooklin Nash: We created guides out of it.

[00:35:05] Brooklin Nash: We created article.

[00:35:05] Brooklin Nash: It just got so much out of one day because they put so much planning into it.

[00:35:09] Brooklin Nash: Why does it have to stop there?

[00:35:11] Brooklin Nash: Nobody needs to know that.

[00:35:12] Brooklin Nash: This guide came from a keynote at the annual event.

[00:35:17] Brooklin Nash: It's still great content and insights, right?

[00:35:20] Brooklin Nash: We also did a series with them called like, X on X, which we've been able to do with quite a few clients.

[00:35:27] Brooklin Nash: It's really fun.

[00:35:28] Brooklin Nash: We basically, in this case, sat down with five of their marketers demand gen, product led growth.

[00:35:35] Brooklin Nash: Ding ding ding.

[00:35:38] Brooklin Nash: Their marketing operations, all these different roles.

[00:35:41] Brooklin Nash: And it was basically how I, as a director of demand gen, use my product for demand gen and then product growth and then marketing operations because it's analytics.

[00:35:52] Brooklin Nash: So they were getting all these insights and turned it into a ghost written piece that was from their perspective, it was super tactical, like step by step without being very product heavy.

[00:36:02] Brooklin Nash: Like it wasn't product marketing.

[00:36:04] Brooklin Nash: And then we were able to take all five and then wrap it up into what they were able to gate as an asset of like five ways to use X for marketing from the brand perspective.

[00:36:14] Brooklin Nash: So it was 545 minutes conversations and we got so much lift out of that.

[00:36:23] Ramli John: That is such a good way to put it.

[00:36:27] Ramli John: Is that a case study on the beam side, if possible, or anywhere?

[00:36:31] Ramli John: I can link that in the description.

[00:36:33] Ramli John: All right, okay.

[00:36:34] Brooklin Nash: It's not it should be they're up for renewal in a couple of months, so that might be coming down the line, hopefully.

[00:36:42] Ramli John: That's awesome, though.

[00:36:42] Ramli John: That's good to hear.

[00:36:43] Ramli John: This is something that other people can apply, this expert driven content.

[00:36:49] Ramli John: Why just do the you can repurpose a bunch of events or things like that that can really highlight experts internally and externally within your content as quotes even maybe for social or other things like that, essentially.

[00:37:04] Ramli John: That's what I've heard here so far.

[00:37:06] Brooklin Nash: Yeah, that's kind of the piece, I guess, that we didn't really get into.

[00:37:11] Brooklin Nash: But that example makes me think of is there's so much more cross pollination when you do this because you can take one interview and A use it so many different ways and B use it for more ideation and creative space of, oh, maybe we should dig into this deeper.

[00:37:28] Ramli John: I love that.

[00:37:30] Career Power Ups with Brooklin Nash

[00:37:30] Ramli John: Well, thank you for sharing this all about expert driven content.

[00:37:33] Ramli John: I want to shift gears and talk about career power ups.

[00:37:36] Ramli John: You mentioned.

[00:37:37] Ramli John: We've been already talking about how long you've been content marketing for over a decade.

[00:37:42] Ramli John: I'm curious, what's something that's helped you kind of accelerate your career or your business and take it to the next level?

[00:37:50] Ramli John: And it could be a soft skill, networking, or being nice to people, or being kind, or just reaching out to folks, or it could be a hard marketing skill that's helped you accelerate your career.

[00:38:05] Brooklin Nash: This might sound negative or positive, depending on how you see it, but I think especially early on, what helped me the most was saying, yeah, I can do that, when I had never in my life done that thing before.

[00:38:21] Brooklin Nash: Because I feel the confidence that I can learn how to do it very quickly and then just learning how to do it.

[00:38:28] Brooklin Nash: I mean, that's how I went from writing to SEO strategy and then doing case studies based off of extensive briefs to running customer interviews.

[00:38:42] Brooklin Nash: That's how I learned a lot at my in house jobs over a couple of years.

[00:38:45] Brooklin Nash: It's just like saying yes for the sake of learning.

[00:38:49] Brooklin Nash: And then I think you can build those skills.

[00:38:52] Brooklin Nash: So I think that's a big one.

[00:38:56] Brooklin Nash: And then I will say there isn't a little self promo here, but there's an article on our side, an interview with Kyle Lacey on marketing careers.

[00:39:05] Brooklin Nash: And I don't know that I've been able to adapt it, so don't take it as my advice, but Kyle shared, like, if you can if if you can learn effective storytelling, you can do a lot as a marketer.

[00:39:18] Brooklin Nash: And sometimes that's writing, sometimes that's branding, sometimes it's internal presentation.

[00:39:22] Brooklin Nash: It's just like the storytelling element because we were talking about writing and how important that is for pretty much any marketer, no matter what your role is.

[00:39:31] Brooklin Nash: And he's like, yeah, writing, but also the story and telling a compelling story with your writing, with your words, with your conversations.

[00:39:41] Brooklin Nash: And I really love that.

[00:39:44] Ramli John: That is awesome.

[00:39:45] Ramli John: This is the one says Kylie C wants marketers to call her outside of the lines.

[00:39:49] Ramli John: Is that the one?

[00:39:50] Brooklin Nash: That's the one.

[00:39:51] Ramli John: Yeah.

[00:39:51] Ramli John: I will link it in the description in show notes, but super cool around like yes.

[00:39:57] Ramli John: Saying yes.

[00:39:58] Ramli John: I feel like also saying yes kind of reaffirms that you can I believe it's.

[00:40:03] Ramli John: Yoda, who said don't say try.

[00:40:06] Ramli John: I'm butchering.

[00:40:07] Ramli John: I'm sorry to all my Star Wars people.

[00:40:10] Ramli John: Don't say you try, just do it.

[00:40:12] Ramli John: That's definitely not how he said it.

[00:40:15] Brooklin Nash: Don't say you'll try, just do it.

[00:40:17] Brooklin Nash: Right?

[00:40:18] Ramli John: Yeah, exactly.

[00:40:19] Ramli John: And you saying yes kind of reaffirms in the back of your mind that, yes, you can do it, versus, like, maybe.

[00:40:26] Ramli John: Kind of like when you say maybe, there's that seed of doubt that makes people stop and like, hey, maybe I can't do it.

[00:40:36] Ramli John: So I love that you said yes, especially early on.

[00:40:40] Brooklin Nash: Sorry.

[00:40:41] Brooklin Nash: I know this is like rapid fireish, but I think it helps you narrow in on what you really love doing and what's, like, that's not for me.

[00:40:50] Brooklin Nash: Yeah, this is a little skewed because I was a freelancer, so this is maybe more freelancer advice, but I had a write up where I said, like, freelancing is saying yes, no, yes, no.

[00:41:08] Brooklin Nash: And slowly moving from saying yes to everything to saying no to most things and saying yes only to the things that you really enjoy and give you that creative spark.

[00:41:23] Ramli John: That's true.

[00:41:26] Ramli John: We haven't really talked about how good you are.

[00:41:28] Ramli John: We're like posting up tweets on LinkedIn and Twitter.

[00:41:31] Ramli John: Do you spend like a few hours a day, like, creating those content?

[00:41:36] Ramli John: Do you spend like an hour at the beginning of the week just to put this all together?

[00:41:43] Ramli John: It just hits you, your shower or walking with your family, like, this is a great tweet.

[00:41:49] Ramli John: Put it in my bank.

[00:41:50] Brooklin Nash: 100% more on that end.

[00:41:52] Brooklin Nash: Which I don't know if is a good thing or a bad thing, but yeah, people have asked me about content strategy or social strategy.

[00:41:59] Brooklin Nash: I have zero.

[00:42:00] Brooklin Nash: I just post shit.

[00:42:03] Brooklin Nash: Post what I want, when I want.

[00:42:05] Brooklin Nash: And here we are.

[00:42:06] Brooklin Nash: And it's like sometimes it hits, sometimes it doesn't.

[00:42:09] Brooklin Nash: My favorite is when I think something's really funny and I'm cracking myself up and that just falls flat and then there's something you hit, it just takes off.

[00:42:21] Brooklin Nash: Or there's a really in depth write up.

[00:42:24] Brooklin Nash: It is one of the few times I sit down and spend 30 40 minutes writing out a post and it's just like there's some engagement.

[00:42:34] Brooklin Nash: Yeah, but then it's the stupidest thing that I think of in the shower, like you said, and it just goes viral.

[00:42:40] Brooklin Nash: Like, what is this?

[00:42:41] Brooklin Nash: It feels like a video game sometimes.

[00:42:43] Ramli John: That's so funny.

[00:42:44] Ramli John: It is, definitely.

[00:42:46] Ramli John: You think you figure out the algorithm and then it's like no you have really is that's super cool though.

[00:42:53] Ramli John: But I'm going to tell you people to follow you on LinkedIn, on Twitter, but we're not wrapped up yet.

[00:42:59] Content Marketing Strategies and Networking Tips from Brooklin Nash

[00:42:59] Ramli John: Just one final question around an advice you would give your younger self, a younger Brooklin who might be starting out in content marketing, just trying to get their feet wet.

[00:43:11] Ramli John: What would be your advice to that younger version of you?

[00:43:16] Brooklin Nash: Yeah, you let me know this question was coming and I still this is like the highest pressure question.

[00:43:24] Brooklin Nash: For some reason.

[00:43:29] Brooklin Nash: I don't know how many freelancers listen to your show, but I think I have different answers for whether if you're a freelancer or if you're a full time marketer.

[00:43:37] Brooklin Nash: I think for freelancers I would say or not, I would say.

[00:43:41] Brooklin Nash: I would have told my younger self, get a lot more specific about what you do.

[00:43:47] Brooklin Nash: It took me way too long.

[00:43:50] Brooklin Nash: I was just like this generous, like I can write this, I'll do this for so long.

[00:43:55] Brooklin Nash: And I think narrowing in on this is what I do, why I do it, and who I work with really helped me a, enjoy the work a lot more and B, if we're being honest, get paid better for of it.

[00:44:07] Brooklin Nash: And that combination just makes this whole thing a lot more sustainable.

[00:44:15] Brooklin Nash: Yeah.

[00:44:15] Brooklin Nash: And then the other piece is just talking to more people, which is another way of saying networking, but not like networking.

[00:44:23] Brooklin Nash: Like, I'm going to go to this happy hour and I'm going to get business cards or whatever the digital equivalent is now.

[00:44:31] Brooklin Nash: Follow up.

[00:44:31] Brooklin Nash: It's just like taking time to talk with people.

[00:44:36] Brooklin Nash: Something I'm so grateful for now is there are other agency owners that I keep up with and we'll connect every few months.

[00:44:44] Brooklin Nash: There's like other freelancers that we'll do that with.

[00:44:48] Brooklin Nash: It's just like really enjoyable to get on a call with pretty much no agenda.

[00:44:52] Brooklin Nash: They're not trying to sell you something, you're not trying to sell them something, you're not trying to get something from them.

[00:44:57] Brooklin Nash: You're just like, hey, what are you running into.

[00:45:00] Brooklin Nash: What are you thinking about?

[00:45:01] Brooklin Nash: I ran into this weird thing that and like, past colleagues keeping up with past colleagues, like somebody worked with at my previous startup.

[00:45:11] Brooklin Nash: We keep up and it's just, like, so enjoyable.

[00:45:13] Brooklin Nash: It makes this whole thing it's better.

[00:45:16] Ramli John: That'S so I would even I do that.

[00:45:21] Ramli John: I meet up with Andrew Kaplan once a month just to catch up on the agenda.

[00:45:26] Ramli John: Just like, hey, how's your podcast podcast going?

[00:45:30] Ramli John: I feel like that just opens up a bunch.

[00:45:35] Ramli John: If you could, that would be cool.

[00:45:37] Ramli John: But I'm curious, who do you keep up with that this has helped you along this journey?

[00:45:43] Ramli John: Maybe you can even shout them out, I guess, if they're okay with it.

[00:45:48] Ramli John: If not, I can cut this part.

[00:45:53] Brooklin Nash: Yeah, I don't know if I want to name drop, if that's all right.

[00:45:58] Brooklin Nash: Like some of their agency owners or maybe like, who you would think.

[00:46:08] Ramli John: I guess maybe that's helped you in this journey that you're like here.

[00:46:12] Ramli John: I just want people.

[00:46:17] Brooklin Nash: That'S a good question.

[00:46:20] Brooklin Nash: I can definitely thank my former boss, Colin Campbell, at Outreach.

[00:46:25] Brooklin Nash: I was only in house for a couple of years, but I went in house after being freelance for so long because I figured there was so much for me to learn, and sure enough, there was.

[00:46:36] Brooklin Nash: And I learned a ton about other stuff, but Colin really showed me what a good manager and direct report relationship looks like and modeled that.

[00:46:46] Brooklin Nash: Yeah.

[00:46:47] Brooklin Nash: So as we're growing our team, we have folks reporting to me for the first time, and it's weird, and I'm just figuring it out as they yeah, he just showed me what empathetic leadership looks like.

[00:47:01] Ramli John: I had such a fun chat with Brooklin.

[00:47:03] Ramli John: If you want to learn more about Brooklin's work, you can go to Beamcontentent Co.

[00:47:06] Ramli John: Or follow him on LinkedIn and Twitter.

[00:47:09] Ramli John: Find all of those links in the description and show notes.

[00:47:12] A Reflection on Marketing Strategies with Brooklin Nash

[00:47:12] Ramli John: Thanks to Brooklyn for being on the show.

[00:47:14] Ramli John: If you enjoyed this episode, you'd love the Marketing Powerups newsletter.

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[00:48:00] Ramli John: Marketing Powerups until the next episode.