Christina Garnett's hierarchy of customer delight

[00:00:00] Christina Garner on the Hierarchy of User Delight at HubSpot

[00:00:00] Ramli John: It's hard to pursue something creative if you don't even have the basic needs like food, water and shelter.
[00:00:06] Ramli John: That's what Masto's hierarchy of needs is all about.
[00:00:08] Ramli John: But it's also true for your customers.
[00:00:10] Ramli John: You can't delight them if you haven't met their basic desires and needs.
[00:00:14] Ramli John: That's where Christina Garnett's hierarchy of user delight comes in.
[00:00:17] Ramli John: She is HubSpot's principal marketing manager of Offline community and advocacy.
[00:00:22] Ramli John: She is also the founder and host of the Fan of the Fans newsletter and show.
[00:00:26] Ramli John: Today she digs into the hierarchy of user delight and how she applies it at HubSpot.
[00:00:30] Ramli John: In this marketing powerups episode you learn, first of all, why caring needs to be a core value of driving communities.
[00:00:36] Ramli John: Second, the difference between community and advocacy.
[00:00:39] Ramli John: Third, Christina's hierarchy of user delight.
[00:00:41] Ramli John: And number four, a career power up that helps accelerate Christina's career.
[00:00:45] Ramli John: By the way, I've created a free power ups cheat sheet to help you apply Christina's hierarchy of user delight to your business.
[00:00:52] Ramli John: You can find it for free marketing powerups.com or find that link in the show notes and description.

[00:00:57] Empowering HubSpot's Fandom and Building a Creator Community

[00:00:57] Ramli John: Are you ready?
[00:00:58] Ramli John: Let's go.
[00:00:59] Ramli John: Marketing powerups ready?
[00:01:03] Ramli John: Go.
[00:01:06] Ramli John: Here's your host, Rambly John.
[00:01:11] Ramli John: We've been binging and chatting about Fandoms.
[00:01:13] Ramli John: I know in another show you talked about how Fandoms is a great place to describe how HubSpot you talked about Hub fans.
[00:01:22] Ramli John: And yes, this is a huge fandom around HubSpot, isn't there?
[00:01:28] Christina Garnett: There is.
[00:01:29] Christina Garnett: It's really lovely to be able to kind of take community and elevate it to this different level with Fandom and so it creates such a deeper bond.
[00:01:40] Christina Garnett: But they're also able to connect with each other beyond the brand.
[00:01:44] Christina Garnett: So our Hub fans have this peer to peer network where they can talk to each other, they can ask questions, they can connect and have fun opportunities.
[00:01:51] Christina Garnett: And so it's really lovely to be able to take our customers and partners who are deeply knowledgeable and love us and know what HubSpot can do for them and just be like, how can we pass the mic to them?
[00:02:02] Christina Garnett: How can we make them the star of the show?
[00:02:04] Christina Garnett: And so it's been a pleasure to be able to be the person that gets to offer that to them.
[00:02:10] Christina Garnett: I'm very honored.
[00:02:11] Christina Garnett: The customers and partners I get to work with daily are just lovely people.
[00:02:14] Ramli John: I'm trying to connect this Tamau to Barbie, how Barbie has worked with other partners to create content.
[00:02:21] Ramli John: You've done something similar with Hub fans where you've enabled this fans to actually create stuff on their own.
[00:02:30] Ramli John: I think I saw something like that.
[00:02:31] Ramli John: You did.
[00:02:32] Ramli John: Right.
[00:02:33] Christina Garnett: So we have the Inbound response program, which is basically we have our customers and partners, our Hub fans, they go to Inbound and they act the way that most companies see influencers.
[00:02:42] Christina Garnett: They're sharing their perspective, their experience, their highlights and things like that.
[00:02:46] Christina Garnett: And I think it's a really interesting way for brands when they're thinking about advocacy and they're not sure of how to get started.
[00:02:54] Christina Garnett: Think about how you would handle your influencers.
[00:02:57] Christina Garnett: Imagine what would happen if that same kind of love and care was given to your customers.
[00:03:01] Christina Garnett: They're going to want to be louder for you.
[00:03:03] Christina Garnett: They're going to want to create more content for you.
[00:03:05] Christina Garnett: And in return, they get to build their personal brand.
[00:03:10] Christina Garnett: They get to really level up as creators because of their connection to you.
[00:03:15] Christina Garnett: And so that empowerment piece is just so priceless.
[00:03:19] Christina Garnett: And so you find that I want to work with anybody who wants to talk to me about HubSpot and wants to talk to me about Hub fans.
[00:03:27] Christina Garnett: What do you want to do?
[00:03:27] Christina Garnett: What motivates you?
[00:03:28] Christina Garnett: What makes you like, what would you like to do?
[00:03:31] Christina Garnett: Because I find that it's very easy to pigeonhole people into this box and say, like, okay, you can just do case studies and that's how you love us.
[00:03:39] Christina Garnett: Some people would love to do a YouTube video for you or a TikTok video or a podcast.
[00:03:44] Christina Garnett: We have podcasts that are just HubSpotters and HubSpot fans who are talking about their knowledge and updates and things like that.
[00:03:53] Christina Garnett: And so you should encourage that.
[00:03:56] Christina Garnett: You should love that.
[00:03:57] Christina Garnett: That's fantastic that you're building a creator community of people who maybe they would love to do that, but they don't know how to get started.
[00:04:06] Christina Garnett: And so you as a brand, get so like, hey, we love you back.
[00:04:09] Christina Garnett: We see what you're doing.
[00:04:10] Christina Garnett: How can we do more of that?
[00:04:11] Christina Garnett: One of the things that we have for Inbound is that after our show with George B.
[00:04:14] Christina Garnett: Thomas.
[00:04:15] Christina Garnett: George B.
[00:04:15] Christina Garnett: Thomas, if you've been in the HubSpot ecosystem at all, you know who he is.
[00:04:18] Christina Garnett: He's an amazing guy, has worked agency side.
[00:04:23] Christina Garnett: He started his own agency now, and he just has this incredible energy about him, this positive energy about him.
[00:04:32] Christina Garnett: And so we have an after hour show with him at Inbound, where we do an audio show from six to seven on the first two nights of Inbound to say, like, here's what happened today, give us all the details.
[00:04:45] Christina Garnett: What did we miss?
[00:04:46] Christina Garnett: What sessions did you love?
[00:04:47] Christina Garnett: And it's a really great opportunity for people to connect about and kind of basically, what would you do if you met at a bar right after Inbound ended and your head is buzzing with sessions and you're like, I just want to talk to somebody about this.
[00:05:00] Christina Garnett: Imagine if we did that and then we offer it up to people who maybe didn't get to come to Boston.
[00:05:05] Christina Garnett: Now they can ask questions and they can overhear and they kind of get a piece of the action even if they can't come.
[00:05:12] Christina Garnett: And so that exists because of our creators and our Hub fans.
[00:05:17] Ramli John: That sounds like it's like taking the idea of the community on the definition of community on a different level, where traditionally with audience, you have this person who's talking to people versus this.
[00:05:32] Ramli John: You're essentially enabling the community members to be the voice is exactly what absolutely.
[00:05:40] Christina Garnett: And it's really this level of empowerment.
[00:05:43] Christina Garnett: I really like Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.
[00:05:45] Christina Garnett: I've created my own version based off of customer advocacy and delight, and at the very, very tip top that a lot of people don't get to it's, this empowerment, and basically they get to become their final form.
[00:05:58] Christina Garnett: And so imagine if you're a brand and you get to be the person that like, yes, swag is great, but what if you got to give them swag plus the opportunity to speak at Inbound?
[00:06:08] Christina Garnett: Or you got to be able to yes, you have swag, but you get to have your own show, or you're a part of the podcast network, or you're one of the creators, or you have a YouTube channel.
[00:06:20] Christina Garnett: It's unlocking doors that just would not exist otherwise.
[00:06:24] Christina Garnett: But why shouldn't they exist?
[00:06:26] Christina Garnett: And why can't you open those doors for people?
[00:06:28] Christina Garnett: It's really powerful way of getting them to that next level so that you're more than just SaaS, like, you're more than just a B, two B brand now.
[00:06:37] Christina Garnett: You are a brand that is impacting people's lives.
[00:06:39] Christina Garnett: Yes, you're growing businesses and you're helping people do their job, but you're also helping them with their careers, and you're helping them become the idealized version of themselves.
[00:06:49] Christina Garnett: What do I want to be when I grow up?
[00:06:50] Christina Garnett: When like, 510 years from now?
[00:06:52] Christina Garnett: What does that final form of me look like?
[00:06:55] Christina Garnett: Being able to be on that path with people is incredibly fulfilling.

[00:07:00] Christina Garnett on Building Meaningful Brand-Customer Relationships

[00:07:00] Ramli John: You brought it up.
[00:07:01] Ramli John: I think I missed this this hierarchy of what would you call it?
[00:07:05] Ramli John: Christina's hierarchy of community needs.
[00:07:10] Christina Garnett: So I took Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.
[00:07:12] Christina Garnett: So it's just this little pyramid, and at the very base, it's survival.
[00:07:16] Christina Garnett: So it's like you need food, you need water.
[00:07:18] Christina Garnett: For brands that's you're doing what you said you were going to do.
[00:07:22] Christina Garnett: If someone signs a contract with you and you're going to give them this product or service in exchange for that, that foundation level is you do what you said.
[00:07:29] Christina Garnett: There's a lot of brands who still aren't doing what they said they would do, but they think that they can send, like, a hoodie, and it's going to fix things.
[00:07:35] Christina Garnett: It's not going to fix things.
[00:07:36] Christina Garnett: You need to get the foundation first.
[00:07:37] Christina Garnett: So do what you said you're going to do.
[00:07:39] Christina Garnett: And on top of that, it's support.
[00:07:41] Christina Garnett: So nothing's perfect.
[00:07:45] Christina Garnett: If something goes wrong, are you there for them?
[00:07:47] Christina Garnett: Do they feel safe?
[00:07:48] Christina Garnett: Do they feel like that they could be taken care of if something unexpected happens?
[00:07:52] Christina Garnett: And then from there, you move up?
[00:07:53] Christina Garnett: So then now we're talking about love.
[00:07:55] Christina Garnett: Now we're talking about community and swag and opportunities to feel seen and heard.
[00:08:00] Christina Garnett: And maybe that brand likes a tweet of yours, or maybe they send you, like, an emoji back.
[00:08:05] Christina Garnett: That's great, but that's usually where brands stop.
[00:08:07] Christina Garnett: They'll send you a gift or they'll send you a hoodie and it's like, see, we nailed it.
[00:08:13] Christina Garnett: There's more.
[00:08:14] Christina Garnett: We love you.
[00:08:15] Christina Garnett: And that's great.
[00:08:16] Christina Garnett: They'll stop that.
[00:08:17] Christina Garnett: There's more.
[00:08:18] Christina Garnett: You can do more than that.
[00:08:19] Christina Garnett: And so above that is that final form, that empowerment.
[00:08:23] Christina Garnett: What are you offering people their biggest fans?
[00:08:27] Christina Garnett: How are you showing your love to them that only you can give them in that way?
[00:08:30] Christina Garnett: What does that look like to you?
[00:08:32] Christina Garnett: And so one thing that's like one really great example is Troy Sandage.
[00:08:36] Christina Garnett: Who is he's a member of our podcast network.
[00:08:39] Christina Garnett: He's a Hub fan.
[00:08:39] Christina Garnett: He's absolutely incredible.
[00:08:41] Christina Garnett: He was a correspondent our first year having the program and last year he became our mainstay's host.
[00:08:47] Christina Garnett: So he's like the MC of inbound.
[00:08:50] Christina Garnett: Who else is going to be able to give him that opportunity but HubSpot?
[00:08:53] Christina Garnett: And he absolutely killed it.
[00:08:54] Christina Garnett: He did an amazing job.
[00:08:55] Christina Garnett: So when we're talking about opening doors for people so that they can become their final form, that's what we're talking about.
[00:09:02] Christina Garnett: How can you have that voice of the customer in places where you would have only reserved that for a celebrity or you would have only reserved that for an influencer?
[00:09:09] Christina Garnett: A lot of brands, if they treated their customers honestly, if all they did was swap their customers with influencers and they treated their customers the way they treat their influencers, just that would make a world of difference.
[00:09:23] Christina Garnett: You want to talk about people who will create content for you for the rest of their life, who will tell everyone they've ever met how amazing you are, that and people will believe them too, because they don't have millions of followers, they don't have that paid partnership underneath.
[00:09:37] Christina Garnett: They know that you're doing it out of sheer love of the brand.
[00:09:41] Christina Garnett: And so you have organic trustworthy.
[00:09:43] Christina Garnett: UGC.
[00:09:44] Christina Garnett: You have diehard fans that are going to be you're going to have stronger retention.
[00:09:49] Christina Garnett: Just it's wild.
[00:09:51] Christina Garnett: I see all these things where it's like you're sending millionaires places or you're sending influencers places.
[00:09:55] Christina Garnett: I was like, oh my gosh, your customers your customers would give anything to be even, like, treated half as well.
[00:10:03] Christina Garnett: Why can't you do that?
[00:10:04] Christina Garnett: Why can't you give that to them?

[00:10:05] 42 Agency - Helping B2B SaaS Companies Build a Predictable Revenue Engine

[00:10:05] Ramli John: Before I continue, I want to thank the sponsor for this episode, 42 Agency.
[00:10:09] Ramli John: Now, when you're in scale up growth mode and you have to hit your KPIs, the pressure is on to deliver demos and sign ups.
[00:10:16] Ramli John: And it's a lot to handle.
[00:10:17] Ramli John: There's demand, gen, email sequences, rev ops and more.
[00:10:21] Ramli John: And that's where 42 Agency, founded by my good friend Camille Rexton, can help you.
[00:10:26] Ramli John: They're a strategic partner that's help B, two B SaaS companies like Profit, Wall, Teamwork, Sprout, Social and Hubdoc to build a predictable revenue engine.
[00:10:34] Ramli John: If you're looking for performance experts and creatives to solve your marketing growth problems today and help you build the foundations for the future, look no further.
[00:10:44] Ramli John: Visit 42 Agency.com to talk to a strategist right now to learn how you can build a high efficiency revenue engine.
[00:10:51] Ramli John: Or you can also find that link in the show notes and description.

[00:10:54] Turn From Using the Product to The Voice of The Product

[00:10:54] Ramli John: Well, that's it for now.
[00:10:55] Ramli John: Let's get back to the episode that's so deep.
[00:10:58] Ramli John: I think it seems like at the very highest level, it's like they've turned from using the product to being the voice of the product.
[00:11:09] Ramli John: A, as you go up.
[00:11:10] Ramli John: What do you call that?
[00:11:11] Ramli John: Christina's hierarchy of delight.
[00:11:15] Christina Garnett: Hierarchy.
[00:11:16] Ramli John: It's Christina's hierarchy of delight.
[00:11:19] Ramli John: There's this deeper level of engagement, but commitment as well.
[00:11:24] Ramli John: It's much harder for them to leave.

[00:11:26] Importance of retention and caring deeply about your consumers in fostering community growth.

[00:11:26] Ramli John: Now, can you talk a little bit about the retention piece here?
[00:11:29] Ramli John: Because once you become at the highest level of that hierarchy, it's so hard.
[00:11:35] Ramli John: Your identity is now attached to that brand because now you're the voice.
[00:11:40] Ramli John: You're talking to other people, you're talking to your friends, maybe, who are not in tech about that.
[00:11:44] Christina Garnett: Yeah, so retention is huge.
[00:11:49] Christina Garnett: I think that retention is essentially like the younger child that's kind of ignored a bit too much, but now people are having to pay attention.
[00:11:59] Christina Garnett: Everyone's focused on growth, growth, growth, growth, growth.
[00:12:01] Christina Garnett: And that is fantastic.
[00:12:03] Christina Garnett: But you have to keep the people that you have, you can't just say, like, all right, well, we're done with them.
[00:12:08] Christina Garnett: That's why the funnel doesn't work.
[00:12:10] Christina Garnett: The flywheel is what works.
[00:12:11] Christina Garnett: Because what happens when you get to the bottom of the funnel, you get chucked out, like, you fall out, and then we don't care about you anymore.
[00:12:17] Christina Garnett: Flywheel very different.
[00:12:19] Christina Garnett: We're going to keep you in that cycle.
[00:12:20] Christina Garnett: We're going to keep taking care of you, making sure that you're good to go, making sure that you have what you need.
[00:12:25] Christina Garnett: And in return, there's going to be retention, but also you're going to share what a great experience it was for you.
[00:12:33] Christina Garnett: You're going to want others to have a similar experience.
[00:12:35] Christina Garnett: And so retention is huge.
[00:12:39] Christina Garnett: It's absolutely huge.
[00:12:41] Christina Garnett: But how do you get people to stay?
[00:12:43] Christina Garnett: How do you get people to stay when people can compete with you on price, when people can compete with you on different pain points?
[00:12:49] Christina Garnett: It's relationships, it's connectivity, it's community that's like, how can you be sticky enough for people to stay?
[00:12:57] Christina Garnett: Well, you got to take care of them.
[00:12:58] Christina Garnett: You got to treat them well.
[00:12:59] Christina Garnett: You got to give them opportunities that no one else can.
[00:13:02] Christina Garnett: You have to absolutely care about them and have it be a part of how you communicate with them, how you talk to them, how you set up events for them, what you do for them, how you are doing your work with their point of view in mind.
[00:13:16] Christina Garnett: Like, when I'm planning things, I'm always like, what does this do for the hub fans?
[00:13:23] Christina Garnett: Why would they care about this?
[00:13:25] Christina Garnett: What opportunities does this offer that they don't currently have?
[00:13:28] Christina Garnett: Where's the value for them?
[00:13:29] Christina Garnett: Would this be exciting for them?
[00:13:31] Christina Garnett: Would they be happy?
[00:13:32] Christina Garnett: And so that has to be at the cornerstone of what you're doing because otherwise you get stuck in what you think is cool.
[00:13:39] Christina Garnett: That's not necessarily what they think is cool.
[00:13:41] Christina Garnett: Or you might give them an opportunity of like, that's too much time and I don't think that's cool or I don't think that's worth it.
[00:13:48] Christina Garnett: And so I think the ability to care and deeply understand what matters to your customers and partners is going to be huge for you because then you're going to be able to essentially let them pick their own adventure.
[00:14:01] Christina Garnett: Like, what does loving us look like to you?
[00:14:03] Christina Garnett: And then how can we make sure that you're able to do that?
[00:14:06] Ramli John: It's something that you tweeted about a few months or years ago around you could teach somebody to code, but you can't really teach somebody to care deeply.
[00:14:16] Ramli John: And that's what community and advocacy and retention is all about because sure, maybe they can switch to another product that is lower price, but there's that risk.
[00:14:28] Ramli John: Would they care about me as much as these people from HubSpot cares about me?
[00:14:33] Ramli John: That's really the retention piece.

[00:14:36] HubSpot: Building a Product Based on a Vibrant Community

[00:14:36] Ramli John: Another really interesting thing is you've called them Hub fans and in my mind attaching somehow their identity, part of their identity now to this group of people, this tribe, this community, it's not just you're leaving the product, you're leaving your people.
[00:14:56] Christina Garnett: Yes.
[00:14:57] Ramli John: Is that what you're finding?
[00:14:59] Christina Garnett: Yeah, well, we're finding that we have really fantastic numbers and our Hub fans, like I said, are some of the most amazing people I've ever been able to work with.
[00:15:07] Christina Garnett: I'm very lucky that I'm honored that I get to work with them, but I find that it's not just me.
[00:15:14] Christina Garnett: It creates that bridge to them.
[00:15:17] Christina Garnett: So now they have, like you said, they have their own tribe, they have their own community.
[00:15:19] Christina Garnett: And now they're able to they're not just asking me for things, they're asking each other for things.
[00:15:24] Christina Garnett: Hey, did you see this?
[00:15:25] Christina Garnett: Does anyone have experience with this?
[00:15:27] Christina Garnett: And what it's done is it's created like a micro community where they understand that the people who are in this proverbial room with me are power users.
[00:15:36] Christina Garnett: They've been using this product for a while.
[00:15:38] Christina Garnett: They get it, they like it.
[00:15:40] Christina Garnett: And the thing too is that they also know that it's a safe space to be negative.
[00:15:45] Christina Garnett: So I had a meeting with a Hub fan a couple of weeks ago where there were some things that he was like, I need this to get done.
[00:15:54] Christina Garnett: And I could have easily said like, sir, this is a positive space.
[00:15:59] Christina Garnett: We are Hub fans and we are all warm and fuzzy and we don't have negative ideas.
[00:16:04] Christina Garnett: No, I want to hear everything.
[00:16:07] Christina Garnett: What do you not like, what would make it easier for you?
[00:16:10] Christina Garnett: What can I share with the product?
[00:16:12] Christina Garnett: Like, I never want them to feel like they have to put on a mask and be like, all right, it's going to be sunshine and rainbows.
[00:16:19] Christina Garnett: Otherwise, Christina is going to kick me out of here.
[00:16:21] Christina Garnett: It needs to be like if you are a fan and you have negative feedback, I know you're not being a troll.
[00:16:28] Christina Garnett: I know you understand the product well enough that you're coming from a space of this could be better.
[00:16:34] Christina Garnett: Here is why and how.
[00:16:36] Christina Garnett: I want that information.
[00:16:37] Christina Garnett: I want to send it to product.
[00:16:38] Christina Garnett: I want to talk to our team and be like, this is what I'm seeing.
[00:16:41] Christina Garnett: Has anyone else had any feedback about this?
[00:16:44] Christina Garnett: All that does is make us better.
[00:16:48] Christina Garnett: That makes the product better.
[00:16:49] Christina Garnett: And for all the people who have that negative feedback, there's probably 510, 20 people who have a negative experience but probably haven't said anything, or they don't have time, or they don't know how to even engage and figure out who to complain to.
[00:17:03] Christina Garnett: But either way, we fix that for one person, chances are it's going to fix that same issue for a lot of people.
[00:17:10] Christina Garnett: And what does that do?
[00:17:11] Christina Garnett: It improves the experience.
[00:17:13] Christina Garnett: That's not a bad thing.
[00:17:14] Christina Garnett: Improving the customer experience should always be the goal.
[00:17:16] Ramli John: The other piece of that that's interesting is like that one person who is complaining by listening to that person and then turning into a solution.
[00:17:27] Ramli John: Their commitment and wow factor, I guess, has gone up on a different level.
[00:17:32] Ramli John: They actually listened to me and implemented this problem that I have.
[00:17:37] Ramli John: So I see that also as a great way to move a higher up the hierarchy.
[00:17:42] Christina Garnett: Absolutely.
[00:17:42] Christina Garnett: But it also gives them a sense of ownership.
[00:17:44] Christina Garnett: So I've seen this multiple times during my career.
[00:17:47] Christina Garnett: Here where we have something called the Ideas Forum, which is a place for our customers to come in and be like, hey, why can't we do this?
[00:17:55] Christina Garnett: Or I wish I could do this.
[00:17:57] Christina Garnett: And sometimes they'll even say how they would code it.
[00:17:59] Christina Garnett: Like here's how I would actually make this happen.
[00:18:02] Christina Garnett: And we've had some of those ideas get approved.
[00:18:05] Christina Garnett: Get shipped.
[00:18:06] Christina Garnett: And then when that person who pitched that idea sees that it lives in the real world, they have a sense of ownership now.
[00:18:14] Christina Garnett: So now they're going to promote that new feature more than, like, anything an ad could ever do.
[00:18:19] Christina Garnett: Because they're going to be like, I wanted this.
[00:18:21] Christina Garnett: This fixed my problem.
[00:18:23] Christina Garnett: They listened to me and now it lives in the wild.
[00:18:25] Christina Garnett: And it lives out in the wild because of me.
[00:18:27] Christina Garnett: It got shipped because I asked for it.
[00:18:30] Christina Garnett: This is my work into the how can you beat that?
[00:18:34] Christina Garnett: How can you beat that with someone's?
[00:18:35] Christina Garnett: Like, I got to play a role in making this product better.
[00:18:39] Christina Garnett: That's very powerful.
[00:18:41] Ramli John: And I guess that's the most interesting part.
[00:18:44] Ramli John: I think this is part of the advisory council.
[00:18:46] Ramli John: Is that really what it's about?
[00:18:47] Ramli John: Kind of defining.
[00:18:48] Ramli John: Maybe the product roadmap or what?
[00:18:50] Ramli John: They're looking for more.
[00:18:53] Ramli John: This is not what at scale or have you cherry picked ones that Are most vocal to Help kind of Shape this?
[00:19:00] Christina Garnett: I talk to everybody and we have different teams who will want to be like, hey, do you want to be a part of a beta or hey, we'd love feedback.
[00:19:08] Christina Garnett: So the other thing that's really great about this and our Voice of customer team is we're able to tap into customers to say, hey, this specific person on this specific team would Love feedback on this.
[00:19:20] Christina Garnett: What do you love?
[00:19:20] Christina Garnett: What do you hate?
[00:19:21] Christina Garnett: What would you change?
[00:19:22] Christina Garnett: Or do you want to be a part of this beta group where you're testing it and Being able To Do things?
[00:19:26] Christina Garnett: Would you like to be interviewed?
[00:19:27] Christina Garnett: Would You Like to talk to our product team face to face and be able to share Your experience?
[00:19:32] Christina Garnett: Good, bad, ugly.
[00:19:33] Christina Garnett: And So what we're doing is with every time we're sourcing an advocate for someone, what we're doing is because a lot of people just see the outside.
[00:19:43] Christina Garnett: Like they're tweeting about us.
[00:19:44] Christina Garnett: They're on Reddit, they're doing a YouTube video.
[00:19:47] Christina Garnett: They're doing a TikTok.
[00:19:48] Christina Garnett: That's amazing.
[00:19:49] Christina Garnett: But they do just as much work internally, and so they're helping us improve.
[00:19:53] Christina Garnett: They're Giving us that feedback because the Voice of customer needs to be Very close to What We do because if we don't keep the Voice of customer very close, it's Very easy.
[00:20:02] Christina Garnett: And tons of brands have experienced this.
[00:20:04] Christina Garnett: You go off in your own way and that's Not Where Your customers wanted you to go.
[00:20:08] Christina Garnett: That's not what they needed.
[00:20:10] Christina Garnett: And so having that voice of customer ever present it's that way to keep product market fit always there what you need.
[00:20:19] Ramli John: Yeah.
[00:20:19] Ramli John: That's so good.
[00:20:20] Ramli John: I think that's just like tapping into how Community can really fuel a bunch of stages in that Gold Flywheel that you're mentioning about this is now Talking about how to fuel what to build and Where To go and Making sure you remain in the product market fit rather than losing that for sure, 100%.

[00:20:39] Discussing HubSpot's Hub Fans Program with Christina Garnett

[00:20:39] Ramli John: How do People I'm curious if the product it seems like this hub fans is Such a Big part of this HubSpot's flywheel.
[00:20:49] Ramli John: Is that promoted right from When People sign up for a trial or is it much later when they've kind of proved out that they're using the product?
[00:20:58] Ramli John: I'm curious how HubSpot itself promotes hub fans internally or externally.
[00:21:05] Christina Garnett: So it's a little bit of both.
[00:21:07] Christina Garnett: So the way that we have our program, it's Built into the community so that there's a Gamified piece and there's a community piece and you can do one or both.
[00:21:15] Christina Garnett: Like I said, I'm very much chooser on adventure.
[00:21:18] Christina Garnett: Gamification isn't for everybody and You Shouldn't Be penalized because you don't want to Collect them all.
[00:21:22] Christina Garnett: And So we internally work with teams to say so if we have a CSM who knows somebody who's deeply passionate and wants to do more work with us.
[00:21:32] Christina Garnett: I'll get brought in and to see what are the opportunities that we can work with this person, what do they like to do, how would they like to work with us.
[00:21:39] Christina Garnett: And then we also have other teams where maybe they are seeing what's working and what's not working.
[00:21:45] Christina Garnett: Or it could be that they're just playing around in the community and they see Hub fans in a group and they're like, what is this?
[00:21:52] Christina Garnett: We have landing pages so anyone can find it if they're interested in joining.
[00:21:56] Christina Garnett: I also do a lot of social listening, so I'm looking for people who are talking about HubSpot positively or they have an experience that they want to share.
[00:22:04] Christina Garnett: And so I regularly am touching in with people and being like, hey, I work at HubSpot, I run this program.
[00:22:11] Christina Garnett: No rush, no pressure, but if you are interested in doing stuff with us and getting rewarded and having opportunities, we'd love to have you join.
[00:22:19] Christina Garnett: And then I give them all the resources and materials so they can learn up and make sure that I'm not a phony.
[00:22:23] Christina Garnett: And then they kind of go from there.
[00:22:25] Ramli John: I like that one on one approach you go back to around relationship.

[00:22:29] Balancing Automation and Human Touch in Customer Marketing

[00:22:29] Ramli John: I feel like sometimes as marketers we automate things too much.
[00:22:33] Ramli John: I can imagine, like oh, if you gave us a ten on the NPS, then we instant invite.
[00:22:38] Ramli John: Does that happen?
[00:22:39] Ramli John: I'm curious at all.
[00:22:39] Christina Garnett: No, that makes sense.
[00:22:44] Christina Garnett: Okay, I believe that you should automate some things, right?
[00:22:48] Christina Garnett: But I am like an analog digital girl.
[00:22:51] Christina Garnett: Like my to do list is written down.
[00:22:53] Christina Garnett: I have Asanas, I have all the things, but I also have my analog.
[00:22:56] Christina Garnett: And I believe that that's kind of the world that I live in is it has to be an analog digital.
[00:23:01] Christina Garnett: There has to be pieces that are deeply human, unapologetically human, and then there's pieces that are automated.
[00:23:07] Christina Garnett: So we have certain parts of the gamify that are automated and set to go, but there's slack channels and there's emails.
[00:23:14] Christina Garnett: And if I see something that I want people to go be a part of, I can message them, be like, hey, would love your feedback on this.
[00:23:21] Christina Garnett: And they also feel that they can tweet me or they can message me.
[00:23:24] Christina Garnett: So I have people who message me on TikTok, I have people who message me on LinkedIn, on Twitter, on Instagram, like all the things.
[00:23:31] Christina Garnett: So it's like they know I live online, same thing.
[00:23:35] Christina Garnett: If I see them, I'll ping them.
[00:23:37] Christina Garnett: But I think it's really hard to create a relationship with someone when it's so obviously automated.
[00:23:45] Christina Garnett: Like for example, let's say that there's an event coming up and you want people to feel like a VIP, so you send out this email list and it might be 30, 40, 50 people, but you say like I'd like to personally invite you, but then I look at the way it's constructed.
[00:24:00] Christina Garnett: And I know that this, like, I'm on a list.
[00:24:03] Christina Garnett: How can this feel intimate if it's so obviously a part of a workflow or something else?
[00:24:10] Christina Garnett: And so with AI and all of these things that are happening right now, especially in customer marketing, when your work really the fruit of your labor is relationships, you have to be very thoughtful and protective of what is automated and what is human, because that is what's going to get you to the next level.
[00:24:31] Christina Garnett: That's what's going to build those relationships.
[00:24:32] Christina Garnett: Because the first time someone you get an automated email from somebody and you're like, I've known this person for five years.
[00:24:39] Christina Garnett: Why are you talking to me like we've never met?
[00:24:42] Christina Garnett: We've had drinks together.
[00:24:43] Christina Garnett: What is this?
[00:24:44] Ramli John: Yeah, right.
[00:24:45] Ramli John: Yeah.
[00:24:49] Christina Garnett: It immediately makes you question, I thought we were closer than this.
[00:24:54] Christina Garnett: What is this?
[00:24:55] Christina Garnett: That hurts a little bit.
[00:24:57] Christina Garnett: Yeah.
[00:24:57] Christina Garnett: And so I think that just having that really empathetic nature of, if I had this relationship with somebody and they sent me this email, how would it make me feel?
[00:25:08] Christina Garnett: And are you saving enough time to make up for the difference?
[00:25:13] Christina Garnett: If I'm saving 30 minutes, but I'm making someone feel cold, that 30 minutes.
[00:25:19] Christina Garnett: That's an investment.
[00:25:21] Christina Garnett: I should have just written them.
[00:25:23] Christina Garnett: I should have just DM'd them.
[00:25:25] Christina Garnett: If we're close enough, if you text to people and then you send them, like, an email list, that's weird.
[00:25:34] Christina Garnett: You can intimately find me and you chose to do this.
[00:25:39] Christina Garnett: I thought we were different.
[00:25:40] Christina Garnett: Yeah, it's weird, but you have to think about it in that perspective.
[00:25:45] Christina Garnett: It's very easy to get into the system of we have to automate absolutely everything.
[00:25:50] Christina Garnett: And so much of my job is automate what I can, but be protective of what is relationship, be protective of what is tied to emotion and tied to really thoughtful experience.
[00:26:04] Christina Garnett: You have to think about that because the person on the other end, even if they're doing it subconsciously, they're going to think, like, why am I getting why am I getting this email?
[00:26:20] Ramli John: Right?
[00:26:21] Christina Garnett: And you did it, and they opened it because they know it's from you, and they're like, oh, it's from Christina.
[00:26:25] Christina Garnett: How is she?
[00:26:26] Christina Garnett: Oh, it's a template.
[00:26:30] Ramli John: Oh, no.
[00:26:31] Ramli John: Shoot.
[00:26:32] Ramli John: What part do you automate then?
[00:26:33] Ramli John: I'm curious.
[00:26:34] Ramli John: A lot of this emotional relationship building, is it more like the admin stuff?
[00:26:41] Ramli John: I'm not entirely sure.
[00:26:43] Christina Garnett: So we have some admin stuff.
[00:26:46] Christina Garnett: So for Gamified, one of the things that we have automated is when you get to different points, the more points you get, the different skills you get.
[00:26:53] Christina Garnett: So you get to different levels.
[00:26:55] Christina Garnett: So when you get to that new level, basically you want a thank you or congratulations.
[00:27:01] Christina Garnett: And what does this mean?
[00:27:03] Christina Garnett: What else do I get?
[00:27:05] Christina Garnett: So that's automated.
[00:27:06] Christina Garnett: And then I go in there and I check, and if there's anyone that I see that I know was, like, doing a lot of.
[00:27:12] Christina Garnett: Work and I'm seeing all this stuff, I'm like, I should go and say hi anyway.
[00:27:16] Christina Garnett: Just be like, hey, saw you poking around, saw you doing some challenges.
[00:27:20] Christina Garnett: Are you talking about us on Twitter?
[00:27:22] Christina Garnett: Like, all the things the other thing, too is just like, you don't even have to reach out.
[00:27:25] Christina Garnett: You just have to acknowledge.
[00:27:27] Christina Garnett: If you looked at my LinkedIn page, 90% of my content is sharing other people's content.
[00:27:36] Christina Garnett: Because what I'm saying is this is like, I don't even need to add myself to the conversation, but I'm going to heart it.
[00:27:41] Christina Garnett: I'm going to share it.
[00:27:42] Christina Garnett: I'm going to amplify you.
[00:27:44] Christina Garnett: And I've had multiple people come up to me to be like, I just love that you amplify our stuff.
[00:27:49] Christina Garnett: You saw it said HubSpot and you saw it was positive and you're like, whoop, all right, it gets shared.
[00:27:54] Christina Garnett: And that's the thing, though, is that there's a lot of people working on personal brand.
[00:27:58] Christina Garnett: There's a lot of people who want to share really great content that may or may not get seen.
[00:28:02] Christina Garnett: But I do have a decent following.
[00:28:04] Christina Garnett: It's not crazy, but I have a decent following.
[00:28:07] Christina Garnett: And so that means that more people that follow me, that know the HubSpot ecosystem are going to see that.
[00:28:12] Christina Garnett: Why wouldn't I want their voice louder?
[00:28:14] Christina Garnett: You're going to help people build a workflow when they hate workflows.
[00:28:17] Christina Garnett: I have to share that.
[00:28:19] Christina Garnett: I'm going to make someone's day better.
[00:28:21] Christina Garnett: They're going to have one less headache because of a video I found and shared.
[00:28:24] Christina Garnett: That's amazing.
[00:28:25] Christina Garnett: And so it's just those little things.
[00:28:27] Christina Garnett: It doesn't have to be a lot.
[00:28:28] Christina Garnett: It just has to be a touch point.
[00:28:30] Christina Garnett: I see you.

[00:28:31] UGC: An Underrated Tool for Brand Marketing

[00:28:31] Christina Garnett: I heart you.
[00:28:33] Christina Garnett: This is wonderful.
[00:28:35] Christina Garnett: Yeah, it's just the little things, just sharing UGC, it's wild to me how brands, they'll share a meme, but they won't share quality UGC.
[00:28:47] Ramli John: That's true.
[00:28:47] Christina Garnett: From someone saying how great their product is.
[00:28:50] Christina Garnett: And that's something that people will believe.
[00:28:53] Christina Garnett: It's weird to me.
[00:28:54] Ramli John: Yeah, I love that.
[00:28:55] Ramli John: That totally makes sense.
[00:28:57] Ramli John: For people who are not familiar with the term, UGC is user generated content and it really is like, empowering people.
[00:29:03] Ramli John: You talk about the hierarchy, particularly just on this topic.
[00:29:08] Ramli John: It's interesting that I feel like the reason why there's this push towards automation sometimes is like this whole rush to grow quickly and grow fast.
[00:29:18] Ramli John: So how do you do that?
[00:29:19] Ramli John: Let's just spam message.
[00:29:22] Ramli John: Let's send a bunch of emails to people to get them on increase engagement, get them sign up for this community.
[00:29:28] Ramli John: And it just feels disingenuous, I think, when that is approached.

[00:29:32] The Power of Community in Driving Business Impact: A Conversation with Christina Garnett, Head of Advocacy and Community at HubSpot

[00:29:32] Ramli John: And I really love your take here, which ties back to I'm curious what metrics you're looking at.
[00:29:38] Ramli John: Do you have any specific metrics that you look at in terms of community growth or those badges for those gamification or it could even be like retention or number of advocacy.
[00:29:51] Ramli John: I'm curious exactly what you and your team looks at and what you report up to.
[00:29:55] Christina Garnett: So in 2021, when I started, it was very much like, let's get this launched.
[00:30:00] Christina Garnett: Let's see what we can do.
[00:30:01] Christina Garnett: Let's see if it works.
[00:30:03] Christina Garnett: Let's see how people react to this.
[00:30:05] Christina Garnett: And then last year, it was very much, let's grow it.
[00:30:07] Christina Garnett: And we've been very lucky.
[00:30:09] Christina Garnett: Like I said, we have a very passionate community and fan base.
[00:30:12] Christina Garnett: And so the growth is there.
[00:30:15] Christina Garnett: So now it's more about elevating it and getting to the next level.
[00:30:18] Christina Garnett: What are the opportunities that we can have?
[00:30:20] Christina Garnett: What are the measurements that we can have beyond growth, beyond how many members are?
[00:30:24] Christina Garnett: What does engagement look like?
[00:30:26] Christina Garnett: What kind of thoughtful conversations are being had?
[00:30:28] Christina Garnett: Are there learnings that our product team is getting from this group?
[00:30:31] Christina Garnett: Are there beta testers?
[00:30:32] Christina Garnett: Is there evidence?
[00:30:33] Christina Garnett: Do we have quotes testimonials, do we have videos?
[00:30:37] Christina Garnett: What are we doing to be able to delight them?
[00:30:39] Christina Garnett: And then how can those conversations and information lead to more sales or drive retention or provide opportunities for us to improve our roadmap?
[00:30:51] Christina Garnett: And so at the end of the day, it's turned into, how can we have Voice of the Customer drive more business impact?
[00:30:58] Christina Garnett: And what it winds up turning into is how can we take an external opportunity and have it take care of an internal need?
[00:31:05] Christina Garnett: Because you can never have too much of a voice of the customer knowing what matters to them, knowing what they would pay more for, knowing what current challenges that they're having.
[00:31:14] Christina Garnett: Because the voice of the customer, even just in the past three years, the outside variables that are impacting our customers are changing.
[00:31:25] Christina Garnett: There's been a lot of customers who would love to be customers, but maybe they've had layoffs, maybe they've had to downsize.
[00:31:33] Christina Garnett: Maybe they were a part of the bank failings.
[00:31:36] Christina Garnett: That happened earlier this year.
[00:31:37] Christina Garnett: And because of that, they had to completely change their trajectory and plan.
[00:31:41] Christina Garnett: There's a lot of external forces that are working on your Voice of the Customer.
[00:31:46] Christina Garnett: And the challenges that they're facing in Q Three this year could be very different than Q One last year.
[00:31:52] Christina Garnett: So you can't think like, all right, well, I got the quote.
[00:31:54] Christina Garnett: We're good, we're done, we're out.
[00:31:56] Christina Garnett: I don't need to talk to them for like 510 years.
[00:31:59] Christina Garnett: You need to keep them close because there's going to be so many variables you can't control.
[00:32:03] Christina Garnett: And so the market is impacting a lot of businesses right now.
[00:32:08] Christina Garnett: And so you have to control what you can control.
[00:32:11] Christina Garnett: So how can we make sure our voices, a Voice of a Customer is loud?
[00:32:14] Christina Garnett: How can we make sure they feel seen and heard and appreciated?
[00:32:17] Christina Garnett: How can we improve our product and make sure that it's aligning with the problems and challenges that our customers are having?
[00:32:23] Christina Garnett: And so that is the constant work that we're doing is how can we make sure that the work we're doing is continuing to solve for the customer.
[00:32:31] Ramli John: And I'm guessing your team is like you and your team are championing that voice now to the product, to the content team.
[00:32:38] Ramli John: Is that exactly what's happening now?
[00:32:39] Ramli John: You're meeting with other teams or like package how do you package this up so that other teams can use that voice of customer that you're hearing through socials as well as through this community?
[00:32:50] Christina Garnett: Well, it depends.
[00:32:52] Christina Garnett: So it depends because their needs are just as different as our customers are.
[00:32:56] Christina Garnett: So they might need like, hey, if we're going to do a campaign, what does that look like on social or if we're going to do this at Inbound, how are we creating a space and experience for them versus the traditional attendee?
[00:33:08] Christina Garnett: How are we talking about this for sales team?
[00:33:10] Christina Garnett: Can we package up some quotes and share content that they can then easily share with prospects who would love to hear testimonials?
[00:33:17] Christina Garnett: And so basically just as we're taking care of the customers and making sure that we're really solving for their needs essentially in the way that they need it, we're not trying to do like one fail swoop that's going to take care of everybody.
[00:33:31] Christina Garnett: We also don't do that with our internal team.
[00:33:33] Christina Garnett: So it really comes down to having those very clear guardrails of what do you need and how can the voice, the customer answer that need and then what does that packaging look like for you?
[00:33:45] Christina Garnett: Is it a slack channel where we'll post things?
[00:33:48] Christina Garnett: Is it a landing page, is it a webinar?
[00:33:50] Christina Garnett: Is it whatever that looks like to them and then providing that for them?
[00:33:55] Ramli John: And I can totally see that.
[00:33:57] Ramli John: I also can see this as do you find that people who are part of Hub funds are more power users so it actually increases product usage as well?
[00:34:10] Ramli John: Or is it the other way around where higher product usage people are actively using HubSpot more often the average customer actually join Hub fans.
[00:34:21] Ramli John: Or maybe there's like a relationship between the two where the people who are in Hub fans, they see use cases and challenges and because of that they, I guess use it more than the average user.
[00:34:35] Christina Garnett: It's a little bit of both.
[00:34:36] Ramli John: Yeah.
[00:34:37] Christina Garnett: So what we have is we have obviously we have the power users who are like, they got it, they want to know more, they want to share, they want to do all the things.
[00:34:44] Christina Garnett: So we definitely have that contingency.
[00:34:46] Christina Garnett: But then we also have this group of people who because of being a Hub fan, a lot of like gamified for example, there's updates on features that are coming out there's.
[00:34:57] Christina Garnett: Check out our latest ebook or check out this latest video from so and so and so we're providing educational tools directly to them.
[00:35:04] Christina Garnett: They go to one place and they're like, here is all the things I can learn about in one place.
[00:35:08] Christina Garnett: And so it also encourages them to become power users.
[00:35:13] Christina Garnett: So we're seeing that mix of power users kind of elevating themselves and then we also see people who are they're in the trenches, but they're saying, all right, I need to increase my usage.
[00:35:24] Christina Garnett: I need to be able to squeeze more out of this.
[00:35:26] Christina Garnett: How do I do that?
[00:35:28] Christina Garnett: Here is this think tank of fans that can answer my questions for the stuff that maybe I've looked on Google and YouTube and I don't know what this answer is, which means it's highly technical.
[00:35:40] Christina Garnett: Well, here's this group of power users that I can tap into because we are all fans.
[00:35:44] Christina Garnett: I can ask them questions, they'll walk me through it.
[00:35:47] Christina Garnett: And so it's just really lovely to be able to see that.
[00:35:49] Christina Garnett: And the nature of our Hub fans is that they're incredibly giving and so they want to help each other.
[00:35:56] Christina Garnett: I've been in communities where you ask a question and they just judge you.
[00:36:00] Christina Garnett: Like, the scowl is immediate.
[00:36:02] Christina Garnett: And here with Hub fans, everyone's so lovely.
[00:36:06] Christina Garnett: Like, you ask a question and everyone's like, pitching in.
[00:36:08] Christina Garnett: How can you help?
[00:36:09] Christina Garnett: What do you need?
[00:36:11] Christina Garnett: I have a framework for this.
[00:36:12] Christina Garnett: Or let me show you what we did.
[00:36:13] Christina Garnett: Or do you want to hop on a zoom and I'll walk you through it and share my screen?
[00:36:17] Christina Garnett: Things like that.
[00:36:18] Christina Garnett: That's really special, that's very hard to find.
[00:36:21] Christina Garnett: And so you have this really nice intersection of advocacy and community where they do the work of advocates, but they treat each other like a community, which is really lovely.
[00:36:33] Ramli John: That's great to hear that.

[00:36:35] Community Engagement at HubSpot: A Conversation with Christina Garnett

[00:36:35] Ramli John: And I'm guessing also what's the relationship between Hub Fence and HubSpot Academy?
[00:36:41] Ramli John: Is there links to because I feel like that they really work hand in hand with each other almost.
[00:36:49] Christina Garnett: They do.
[00:36:49] Christina Garnett: So we do have some of our trainers.
[00:36:52] Christina Garnett: So we have some of the HubSpot trainers.
[00:36:55] Christina Garnett: They are in some of the HubSpot Academy videos.
[00:36:59] Christina Garnett: They also have boot camps that they do.
[00:37:01] Christina Garnett: And some of those trainers are in our Hub Fans program because obviously they love the product and they know it quite well.
[00:37:07] Christina Garnett: And so we also work really well with the Academy because they also want to feature people who are not just professors and not just HubSpotters.
[00:37:14] Christina Garnett: So we've had Hub fans who've been presented as experts.
[00:37:19] Christina Garnett: We had one person who absolutely amazing.
[00:37:22] Christina Garnett: She was in our Facebook advertising course when it was revamped.
[00:37:28] Christina Garnett: And what's really lovely and goes to that hierarchy model is when it got published and she was able to share that she was a featured expert in it.
[00:37:37] Christina Garnett: It wasn't like, hey, check this out.
[00:37:40] Christina Garnett: And it wasn't even like the LinkedIn, like, I am so humbled.
[00:37:44] Christina Garnett: You know what I'm talking about.
[00:37:46] Christina Garnett: It wasn't that.
[00:37:47] Christina Garnett: It was this is a career milestone.
[00:37:49] Christina Garnett: This is how I know I've made it because I was featured in this.
[00:37:52] Christina Garnett: And so it's really lovely to be able to be able to have these opportunities and have people who are like, they're not just there.
[00:38:01] Christina Garnett: They are brilliant and they are funny and they are kind and they want to help.
[00:38:05] Christina Garnett: They're helpers.
[00:38:06] Christina Garnett: And so it's really fulfilling to be able to open those doors for them to be like, do you want to be in HubSpot Academy video?
[00:38:14] Christina Garnett: Do you want to teach a bootcamp and teach people how to do something?
[00:38:18] Christina Garnett: It's really lovely.
[00:38:19] Christina Garnett: But like you said, there's a really great connection between HubSpot Academy and hub fans.
[00:38:24] Christina Garnett: HubSpot academy team is incredibly talented and kind and it's all about elevating people.
[00:38:30] Christina Garnett: Both groups elevate people.
[00:38:33] Christina Garnett: And so it's fantastic working with them.
[00:38:36] Ramli John: It seems like there's so this hub fan became like a HubSpot professor.
[00:38:41] Ramli John: It seems like there's like traditionally we think about career paths, but there's like a community member path almost.
[00:38:50] Ramli John: Do you have that mapped out somewhere where you have it in your or is it more like it's informal, where you start off as a member, then you respond to a fewer contributor, then I guess at the highest level, you're a correspondent or you can teach something.
[00:39:05] Christina Garnett: So we do have internal documents for our customer journey.
[00:39:10] Christina Garnett: So just like we would do a customer journey, we have advocate journey, we have a community member journey.
[00:39:14] Christina Garnett: But I think what's been really lovely is HubSpot proves that they pay attention to the people that are in their community.
[00:39:23] Christina Garnett: I was a fan of HubSpot before I joined and was asked to join Devin Bellamy, who founded Black and Inbound.
[00:39:30] Christina Garnett: He was a major fan of HubSpot and is brought on and he's done amazing things.
[00:39:34] Christina Garnett: And so what you see is when you're working with all these people, there is this general love of the brand and of the product and the people that make it possible.
[00:39:42] Christina Garnett: And so it doesn't always happen, but it's lovely to be able to see people who've kind of grown from the outside in because of their relationship with us and what they're learning.

[00:39:55] Understanding the Advocacy Journey with Christina Garnett

[00:39:55] Ramli John: You keep bringing up stuff.
[00:39:57] Ramli John: What is the advocacy journey or the customer member journey?
[00:40:02] Ramli John: I mean, you don't have to list it out specifically, but this kind of piqued my interest that it's different from the customer journey itself or it could be like a micro part of it.
[00:40:14] Christina Garnett: Yeah.
[00:40:15] Christina Garnett: So when we're thinking about advocates or we're thinking about community members, we think about like, all right, they've joined or they're in our ecosystem in some capacity.
[00:40:24] Christina Garnett: And then what do you look at to determine how are they growing as a community member or how are they growing as an advocate?
[00:40:31] Christina Garnett: So it could be very behavior based.
[00:40:34] Christina Garnett: So are they answering questions in the community or are they tweeting about us or creating YouTube images, I mean, YouTube videos or posting on TikTok?
[00:40:44] Christina Garnett: What are they doing and are they doing more of it?
[00:40:47] Christina Garnett: And what does it take to get them to do more?
[00:40:50] Christina Garnett: Is it that maybe they don't know what to post.
[00:40:54] Christina Garnett: It could be that they need encouragement.
[00:40:56] Christina Garnett: It could be that they don't know how to edit video.
[00:41:01] Christina Garnett: Is that an opportunity for us to have, like, there's a video hug that's all about using video marketing.
[00:41:07] Christina Garnett: What are the opportunities that we can get in front of them?
[00:41:10] Christina Garnett: So that because a lot of the time, it's not a lack of will, it's a lack of something else.
[00:41:15] Christina Garnett: Either I don't know or I'd make it, but no one's going to see it.
[00:41:20] Christina Garnett: So what's the point?
[00:41:21] Christina Garnett: Well, I can help with that.
[00:41:22] Christina Garnett: I can amplify it.

[00:41:23] Christina Garnett Discusses Customer Advocacy Strategies

[00:41:23] Christina Garnett: So what are the different motivators that are and what are the different friction points for people to be able to get to that next level?
[00:41:31] Christina Garnett: And then how can we, as community leaders and advocacy leaders, how can we remove those barriers for them to get them to the next level?
[00:41:40] Christina Garnett: Making sure that the whole time we're adding more and more value for them?
[00:41:43] Christina Garnett: Because it isn't just like we need them to do more for us.
[00:41:46] Christina Garnett: It's well, as they do more, what do they get out of what's?
[00:41:50] Christina Garnett: What's the why for them?
[00:41:52] Christina Garnett: Because it can't just be that they want to edit YouTube videos all day, because I know that that's not so, like, what's in it for them?
[00:41:59] Christina Garnett: Do they want to be a thought leader?
[00:42:01] Christina Garnett: Do they want to present an inbound?
[00:42:04] Christina Garnett: Do they want to create a podcast and be a part of the podcast network one day, understanding where are they headed, where are their goals?
[00:42:12] Christina Garnett: So I talk to my advocates quite a lot to figure out what's going on, what's happening.
[00:42:18] Christina Garnett: And the beginning of this year, the first quarter, I had a meeting with our advocates to just say, like, it's been a really tough quarter.
[00:42:25] Christina Garnett: Some of you have lost your job.
[00:42:27] Christina Garnett: Some of you are worried you'll lose your job.
[00:42:29] Christina Garnett: Some of you are just burned out and tired.
[00:42:32] Christina Garnett: And so a conversation of like, what are you struggling with right now?
[00:42:35] Christina Garnett: Where are your challenges?
[00:42:36] Christina Garnett: What can we do to make you feel better?
[00:42:39] Christina Garnett: What are your new motivations?
[00:42:41] Christina Garnett: And so things like that.
[00:42:42] Christina Garnett: Just keeping them close.
[00:42:43] Christina Garnett: I'm going to say, like, keep your customer voice close, really a lot of times, but it's worth saying every single time, knowing what motivates them, what's their carrot, because I think it's very easy to assume that all people have the same carrot and they don't.
[00:43:01] Ramli John: I guess.
[00:43:01] Ramli John: How many advocates do you actively follow up or are part of this?
[00:43:06] Ramli John: Do you have a separate group for advocates?
[00:43:07] Ramli John: Like, it's like a different group.
[00:43:14] Christina Garnett: We have a community group for our Hub fans.
[00:43:16] Christina Garnett: We have active Hub fans in our gamify that may or may not be in the community.
[00:43:20] Christina Garnett: And then we have our Hub Fans Council, which is our top tier, which is the people who are like, top the top.
[00:43:26] Christina Garnett: They've done everything that I've ever asked, right?
[00:43:31] Christina Garnett: They've been like, do you want me to color my face purple and yell, I'll do it.
[00:43:38] Christina Garnett: So they get every opportunity I could find for them.
[00:43:44] Christina Garnett: I don't know if I can divulge the numbers.
[00:43:48] Christina Garnett: We have tens of thousands in Gamified.
[00:43:51] Christina Garnett: We have thousands in the community, and then we have hundreds in the top tier level.
[00:43:58] Ramli John: That's cool that it's like a higher this is what I was talking about, some kind of progression itself.
[00:44:05] Ramli John: That's super cool in terms of, like I'm calling it the hierarchy.
[00:44:11] Ramli John: Christina's hierarchy of delight.

[00:44:13] Increasing Customer Engagement and Moving Beyond Transactional Relationships

[00:44:13] Ramli John: What's your advice to companies who can help their customers, I guess move up that hierarchy?
[00:44:20] Ramli John: Maybe right now they're at the lowest because at the lowest, customers are there because they're getting something functionally from the product.
[00:44:27] Ramli John: But what are your advice for them to get their customers up higher and make them love the product enough to become advocates?
[00:44:37] Christina Garnett: I would not take look at the MPs scores, like you said, or look at the MPs, not scores that's duplicated, but look at the MPs, see what are people saying in their things?
[00:44:50] Christina Garnett: So if they're giving you a high MPs, are they providing why it's high?
[00:44:55] Christina Garnett: If it's low, why are they providing it's low middle?
[00:44:58] Christina Garnett: Why are they providing its middle?
[00:45:00] Christina Garnett: What's really interesting is that people triage the bottom, and they will praise the top, and the growth is in the middle.
[00:45:08] Christina Garnett: And MPs is an Oreo cookie.
[00:45:10] Christina Garnett: And I need you to go the cream first.
[00:45:12] Christina Garnett: Go to the center because that is where the growth is.
[00:45:15] Christina Garnett: That's the people who are like, they don't hate yeah, but they could love you, but they don't go to the cream.
[00:45:22] Christina Garnett: Go there first and figure out what's working, what's not working, and take care of them.
[00:45:27] Christina Garnett: Because it's very easy to fall into the we're going to take care of the I love yous, and we're going to take care of the I hate yous, but it's very hard to turn someone I hate you to I love you, but you can turn a me into and I love you significantly quicker.
[00:45:40] Christina Garnett: I'm not saying you need to ignore the others, but you need to make space and time for those people, because those are the people who usually get ignored in social listening.
[00:45:50] Christina Garnett: If you're doing social listening, it's the neutral that a lot of people ignore.
[00:45:54] Christina Garnett: They'll go straight to the escalation ones for negative, or they'll go straight to the positives to praise those and retweet those and get those out.
[00:46:01] Christina Garnett: You need to look at the neutrals.
[00:46:03] Christina Garnett: Why are they okay, but not happy?
[00:46:07] Christina Garnett: Why are they this will do.
[00:46:09] Christina Garnett: But also those are the ones that are going to leave.
[00:46:12] Ramli John: Interesting.
[00:46:13] Christina Garnett: Those are the ones who are going to leave because the ones who hate you are going to leave as soon as they can.
[00:46:20] Christina Garnett: They're going to leave as soon as the contract expires.
[00:46:23] Christina Garnett: The ones who are in the middle as soon as a competitor says anything, they're out.
[00:46:32] Christina Garnett: Because you just have to be better than mid.
[00:46:34] Christina Garnett: You don't have to be great.
[00:46:35] Christina Garnett: You just have to be better than mid.
[00:46:37] Christina Garnett: There's a lot of opportunity in the cream of the oreo.
[00:46:41] Christina Garnett: Go there, spend some time there who is okay.
[00:46:45] Ramli John: Yeah.
[00:46:46] Christina Garnett: And figure out how you can get them to the next level.
[00:46:48] Ramli John: Yeah, figure out how you can get them there.
[00:46:51] Ramli John: What do they need?
[00:46:52] Ramli John: What are the problems they have?
[00:46:54] Ramli John: And then you were talking about in that hierarchy, do you offer them swag?
[00:47:00] Ramli John: What are your thoughts around that at some point?
[00:47:03] Ramli John: Obviously, that's not necessarily the carrot that they're looking for, but really figuring out what is it that they need there?
[00:47:10] Christina Garnett: So I love swag, but you have to be very thoughtful about swag.
[00:47:17] Christina Garnett: For example, there's two things with Swag that a lot of people take for granted.
[00:47:23] Christina Garnett: One, there's dopamine.
[00:47:25] Ramli John: Yeah.
[00:47:27] Christina Garnett: The first piece of swag you get from a company will always have the biggest dopamine hit, and everything after that will have less and less and less.
[00:47:37] Christina Garnett: So it has diminishing returns.
[00:47:41] Christina Garnett: So if you keep giving someone a hoodie or a yeti or something, they're going to be like, thanks, but it never feels as good as the first time you gave them something.
[00:47:52] Christina Garnett: So you have to remember that you're not making the same headway that you thought you were.
[00:47:57] Christina Garnett: Two people know what things cost.
[00:48:00] Christina Garnett: So if I got you this massive $10,000 deal and you give me a $35 cup, at first I'll be like, thank you.
[00:48:09] Christina Garnett: That's super cool.
[00:48:10] Christina Garnett: And second of all, I'll be like, you're going to have to bring a little bit more than this.
[00:48:14] Christina Garnett: And that's why I don't like transactional stuff.
[00:48:17] Christina Garnett: Swag can turn transactional really quickly.
[00:48:20] Christina Garnett: I love swag for delight, for surprise and delight.
[00:48:23] Christina Garnett: I don't like swag for exchanging things, because things start feeling transactional very quickly.
[00:48:31] Christina Garnett: And when it's opportunities or delight, it's like, oh, this is really lovely.
[00:48:37] Christina Garnett: And I don't think that I've done ten things to get this $35 cup.
[00:48:41] Christina Garnett: I just think, oh, they notice.
[00:48:44] Christina Garnett: That's really cute.
[00:48:44] Christina Garnett: That's nice.
[00:48:46] Christina Garnett: Versus if I do a call and then I get a cup, I know that that call equates to a cup.
[00:48:55] Christina Garnett: And so I will stop doing those calls or whatever you need me to do once that cup is not worth the time.
[00:49:03] Christina Garnett: And so I love Swag.
[00:49:06] Christina Garnett: Not fighting swag, but you need to remember those two things.
[00:49:10] Christina Garnett: And it all comes down to human behavior and behavioral psychology.
[00:49:14] Christina Garnett: It's like, how does this impact people?
[00:49:16] Christina Garnett: And how is it going to impact people over time?
[00:49:18] Christina Garnett: And how do you need to be aware of that as you're nudging people?
[00:49:21] Christina Garnett: And so, yeah, you got to keep that in mind, because as soon as someone says they'll send gift cards for people and they'll take the first couple of bites, and then after that, they stop doing it, and they're like, why did they stop?
[00:49:33] Christina Garnett: I thought they were engaged.
[00:49:35] Christina Garnett: It stopped being worth what you were offering.
[00:49:39] Christina Garnett: You set the post for what it was equal to and as soon as that wasn't enough for them, they stopped.
[00:49:46] Ramli John: And that's why relationship is so much better because it's beyond extrinsic reward.
[00:49:52] Ramli John: There's like this deep we talk about love, but this respect and friendship built and you're more willing to do something for a friend than you are to do something for a $50 gift card.
[00:50:04] Christina Garnett: Hopefully, yes.
[00:50:08] Ramli John: Well, thank you for sharing.

[00:50:09] Career Power ups and Advancement Strategies

[00:50:09] Ramli John: I actually want to shift gears and talk about career power ups that's like something that's helped you accelerate your career.
[00:50:15] Ramli John: Now you've had an interesting career actually, I think I looked back, you started off as a teacher and then you got into marketing.
[00:50:22] Ramli John: Now you work at this amazing company, HubSpot, as principal marketing manager for their hub fans and their advocacy programs.
[00:50:32] Ramli John: I'm curious what's a thing that helped you accelerate your career?
[00:50:35] Ramli John: It could be something soft like being friends with more people or something more like a hard marketing skill, but it could be anything that's helped you get a leg up as a marketer.
[00:50:46] Christina Garnett: I think for me, what's been very helpful is I've been very vocal about my thoughts on things.
[00:50:52] Christina Garnett: I'm very particular about how I say them.
[00:50:55] Christina Garnett: Like, I don't go out and drag people, but I think it's important to have a clear point of view.
[00:51:00] Christina Garnett: It doesn't mean you need to be an influencer, it doesn't mean that you have to work on your personal brand.
[00:51:05] Christina Garnett: But it does help when people outside of your circle know what you are about and what you think of and what your perspective of things are.
[00:51:15] Christina Garnett: The other is you cannot get in your own head and think that people are thinking about you more than they are because they're not.
[00:51:25] Christina Garnett: A lot of people will think that their career is being held down because people don't like them when what it is, is that they're so busy they may not see all the things that you do.
[00:51:34] Christina Garnett: So documenting your work and managing up to show like, here's all the things I'm working on and here's the business impact, creating like there's a there's a quote from Steve Martin that I absolutely adore and it literally is like the cornerstone of my career and it's be so good they can't ignore you.
[00:51:53] Ramli John: So good.
[00:51:54] Ramli John: Yeah.
[00:51:55] Christina Garnett: If you aren't documenting your success and you're not documenting what you're bringing to the business, how else no one's going to advocate for you the way you will advocate for you.
[00:52:06] Christina Garnett: You can still be humble about it, you don't have to brag all over the place, but you do need to stand firm and socialize the work that you're doing and know what is important to the business.
[00:52:16] Christina Garnett: So what was really helpful I got my MBA and what was incredibly helpful about it was it let me look from a business lens.
[00:52:25] Christina Garnett: It's very easy for marketers to get stuck and think about just what they need to do from a marketing perspective, but you need to be able to talk about your work from a business impact perspective, from the overall business.
[00:52:39] Christina Garnett: How are you making things move?
[00:52:43] Christina Garnett: How are you driving impact?
[00:52:45] Christina Garnett: What KPIs are you looking at that leadership cares about, that you are playing a role in?
[00:52:50] Christina Garnett: That may not be a KPI that you specifically are measuring for you, but you know that it's leading to things for other teams that are measuring and looking at KPIs.
[00:53:01] Christina Garnett: Having that perspective to be able to look at your own work, but then be able to look at it in this bigger space and talk those talks.
[00:53:08] Ramli John: Priceless it's something that April Dunford actually mentioned in episode one as a career power up to like she worded as marketers need to get their head out of marketing and look at the bigger picture sometimes doing the community love doing this that you mentioned.
[00:53:26] Ramli John: What is the impact of this to voice of the customer, to the product, to CS and maybe creating some more content in HubSpot Academy?
[00:53:37] Ramli John: And so this is exactly what you're talking about here.
[00:53:40] Christina Garnett: Yeah, there's a lot of shiny things in marketing.
[00:53:44] Christina Garnett: And you expect because you see how shiny it is and how lovely it is that everyone else is going to see how great it is.
[00:53:49] Christina Garnett: And then you're shocked when leadership is like, Why?
[00:53:52] Christina Garnett: Yes, it's shiny, but why should I care?
[00:53:56] Christina Garnett: And being able to think about it from that perspective of what's in it for them, incredibly important.
[00:54:01] Christina Garnett: And also the other thing that I've learned that's been very hard and difficult for me to learn, I love to write, I love to talk, as you can tell.
[00:54:09] Christina Garnett: So people be like, so what are you up to?
[00:54:10] Christina Garnett: And I'll write a thesis.
[00:54:11] Christina Garnett: I'll write, Odysseus, leadership does not care.
[00:54:15] Christina Garnett: Leadership does not want to see that.
[00:54:16] Christina Garnett: Leadership no.
[00:54:18] Christina Garnett: So if you have updates, go into like Chat GBT or AI or whatever tool you're doing, write your breakdown and then tell Chat GBT, like, summarize this for this level of person.
[00:54:33] Christina Garnett: Tell me the main things that I'm talking about here and give me the main points in bullet point form.
[00:54:40] Christina Garnett: Be as simple as possible because I will literally write the Bible.
[00:54:44] Christina Garnett: And they're like, I want three bullets.
[00:54:47] Christina Garnett: Just give me three bullets.
[00:54:48] Christina Garnett: Christina okay.
[00:54:50] Ramli John: Do you actually use Chat GPT for that?
[00:54:52] Ramli John: That's super.
[00:54:53] Christina Garnett: I use HubSpots.
[00:54:54] Christina Garnett: I use HubSpot's Content Associate for that because I got to keep it in house.
[00:54:59] Christina Garnett: But I would recommend that I think I posted that at LinkedIn a few weeks ago because it's very true.
[00:55:07] Christina Garnett: ICS because ICS want everyone to see what they're doing.
[00:55:12] Christina Garnett: Like, I'm doing all this work.
[00:55:13] Christina Garnett: You may not know.
[00:55:15] Christina Garnett: I need to tell you everything.
[00:55:16] Christina Garnett: And leadership's like, I got 4 seconds.
[00:55:22] Christina Garnett: I'm about to go into another meeting.
[00:55:24] Christina Garnett: I.
[00:55:24] Christina Garnett: Got 4 seconds.
[00:55:26] Christina Garnett: What do I need to know?
[00:55:28] Christina Garnett: Is there a blocker?
[00:55:30] Christina Garnett: Yeah, big advice I would give do that because they're going to summarize it if you don't.
[00:55:38] Christina Garnett: And they may not pick the things that you think are important and then you're like, but why did you oh, okay.
[00:55:44] Christina Garnett: Because you summarize my ten pages into like two sentences and it's not the two sentences I would choose.

[00:55:49] Marketing Powerups with Ramli John

[00:55:49] Ramli John: If you enjoyed this episode, you'd love the Marketing Powerups newsletter.
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[00:56:36] Ramli John: Marketing Powerups it until the next episode.