Gaetano DiNardi's value-led content strategy

[00:00:00] Creating Value-Led Content for B2B Websites

[00:00:00] Ramli John: A common misconception is that every page on your website should be focused on generating and converting leads.
[00:00:05] Ramli John: Gaitano Dinardi, a growth advisor for companies like gong, cognism and more, proposes better ways to pull people into your orbit using valueled content.
[00:00:15] Ramli John: By understanding the intent of your website visitors, you can create and distribute content that delivers value to them.
[00:00:20] Ramli John: In episode 55 of the marketing pop show, you learn, first of all, the valueled content, that strategy.
[00:00:25] Ramli John: Second, Guy Tano's declared intent audit process for b two b websites.
[00:00:30] Ramli John: Third, leading metrics that indicate website visitors are getting value.
[00:00:33] Ramli John: And four, a career power up that has accelerated Gaitano's career.
[00:00:37] Ramli John: Before we get started, create a free powerup cheat sheet that you can download and apply Gaitano's value based content strategy to your business right away.
[00:00:45] Ramli John: Get it now@marketingpowerups.com.
[00:00:47] Ramli John: Or find the link in the show notes and description are you ready?
[00:00:50] Ramli John: Let's go.
[00:00:51] Ramli John: Marketing power ups.
[00:00:54] Ramli John: Ready, go.

[00:00:58] Different Levels of Intent in B2B Website Visitors

[00:00:58] Ramli John: Here's your host, Rambly John, I'm excited to come for you to come on and here to talk about different levels of intent that buyers have when they come on b two B website.
[00:01:11] Ramli John: You've talked a lot about this.
[00:01:13] Ramli John: You've actually talked about how when b two b executives, they have this goal in mind that when all users who come to the website should convert to leads, and you're like, wait 1 second.
[00:01:29] Ramli John: You wrote this post about why that's wrong thinking, especially with b two B executives.
[00:01:34] Ramli John: For people who haven't read it, I'm going to link it in the show notes in the description that LinkedIn post you wrote.
[00:01:39] Ramli John: But I'm curious why you don't think, well, it makes sense to some people, but why shouldn't every page in your site be focused on converting leads?
[00:01:49] Gaetano DiNardi: I think tech cmos are starting to wake up to the fact that there's just a lot of.
[00:01:58] Ramli John: If you think.
[00:01:58] Gaetano DiNardi: Of all the things that would clutter up demand gen traffic reporting sheet as you grow, you're going to have the following kinds of traffic just cluttering up the actual growth portion of it versus non growth.
[00:02:14] Gaetano DiNardi: So things like customer login, career seekers, competitor lurkers, analysts, all that stuff, it's just a lot of clutter, right?
[00:02:32] Gaetano DiNardi: So the idea of a blended conversion rate, it bothers me just because of that.
[00:02:39] Gaetano DiNardi: And as you grow, there's a huge amount of that that comes through to the site.
[00:02:43] Gaetano DiNardi: The other part of it is that so much of it is exploratory.
[00:02:50] Gaetano DiNardi: Very little of it is convert.
[00:02:52] Gaetano DiNardi: And when it is convert, it's often not the path you might expect.
[00:02:58] Gaetano DiNardi: It's often homepage, demo convert or home page to price and page unchecked out.
[00:03:06] Gaetano DiNardi: Sign up for a demo and your classic b two b model, assuming it's not product led or something like that.
[00:03:12] Gaetano DiNardi: So with all that being said, it's like how do you explain a 32nd time on site with a conversion path of one page or two pages?
[00:03:21] Gaetano DiNardi: The most common conversion path is homepage checkout or homepage pricing checkout.
[00:03:27] Gaetano DiNardi: The reason that is is because they've done all that work somewhere else.
[00:03:33] Gaetano DiNardi: You know what I mean?
[00:03:34] Gaetano DiNardi: Like they've went to review sites, they've talked to peers, they've went to Reddit or whatever community groups are out there and they do a lot of the off site research.
[00:03:45] Gaetano DiNardi: When you look at the product and feature pages on a corporate site, a lot of it is just let me figure out what this is, let me get deeper into it and maybe there's enough there to pique the interest of a person when they're like, yeah, I'm still in the evaluation stage, but generally, generally speaking, most people don't fill out that form until they're like 80% to 90% sure.
[00:04:13] Gaetano DiNardi: It's rarely the case that you get somebody filling out that demo form.
[00:04:16] Gaetano DiNardi: That's just like, yeah, I'm just kind of really early in my exploration phase and I just want to learn more about it.
[00:04:22] Gaetano DiNardi: That doesn't really happen anymore.
[00:04:24] Gaetano DiNardi: So that part of the buyer journey has to actually come from the website.
[00:04:32] Gaetano DiNardi: It shouldn't be, let's just give them a little bit and force them to talk to sales to get all the deeper insight.
[00:04:39] Gaetano DiNardi: It should actually be the opposite.
[00:04:40] Gaetano DiNardi: Let's give them as much value as possible through the site and only make them talk to sales for the end portion of it.
[00:04:48] Gaetano DiNardi: When they just have some very deep, intimate question or some very complex question about how an integration might work or something like technical details.
[00:04:58] Gaetano DiNardi: Right?
[00:04:59] Gaetano DiNardi: Don't make them get on the phone with sales when you could have given them that information through the site.
[00:05:06] Gaetano DiNardi: So anyway, getting back to it, it's like when you have all those complex factors at play, it's very tough to look at a main product page on a site and give it a conversion rate, grade it that way.
[00:05:24] Gaetano DiNardi: It's just very tough to do that given all the different kinds of intent that's going to that page.
[00:05:30] Gaetano DiNardi: And it's just not the place where people buy.
[00:05:31] Gaetano DiNardi: It's not like it's an ecommerce product page.
[00:05:35] Gaetano DiNardi: They don't buy there.
[00:05:36] Gaetano DiNardi: They're not looking at dimensions of a shoe with.
[00:05:39] Gaetano DiNardi: So that's the thing I'm trying to instill with the companies I work with, changing thinking in that regard and not blowing smoke in terms of reporting.
[00:05:50] Gaetano DiNardi: Like, yeah, we're going to make it a conversion rate improvement project on this page that has mostly zero buying intent traffic.
[00:05:57] Gaetano DiNardi: It's like, what are we doing?
[00:05:59] Gaetano DiNardi: So that's where it all comes from.
[00:06:02] Ramli John: You made a good point there.
[00:06:03] Ramli John: I think people want to educate themselves.
[00:06:07] Ramli John: It might be because of the culture of, well, it may be some misconception of like, if I fill out this form, I'm going to be bombarded by text messages and calls and emails from the sales team.
[00:06:21] Ramli John: And I want to avoid that by making sure that I know as much as possible before I even submit.
[00:06:27] Ramli John: And I love how you put it.
[00:06:29] Ramli John: I have a question that is not answered on the site and I'm like 80 to percent, 90 ready to buy and that's when I'm going to fill out the form.
[00:06:36] Ramli John: It's exactly what I heard you say there.
[00:06:38] Gaetano DiNardi: Would you say yes, that is the modern way that people are buying.
[00:06:44] Gaetano DiNardi: They may even engage with a chat widget on the site, assuming it's live.
[00:06:49] Gaetano DiNardi: I've been seeing more.
[00:06:51] Gaetano DiNardi: There's a new category that's coming to life called co browsing software.
[00:06:56] Ramli John: Have you heard of this co browsing software?
[00:06:58] Gaetano DiNardi: No.
[00:06:58] Gaetano DiNardi: What is this co browsing software?
[00:07:01] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah.
[00:07:01] Gaetano DiNardi: So the idea is that you can, without scheduling a meeting and going through all that hassle, a widget will appear on the site that says, have a question, video chat us.
[00:07:13] Gaetano DiNardi: Right.
[00:07:14] Gaetano DiNardi: What?
[00:07:15] Ramli John: Interesting.
[00:07:15] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah.
[00:07:16] Gaetano DiNardi: Within 30 seconds, you will be on a screen share with a sales rep and they can share their screen and take you into the demo environment and give you a lightning demo right there on the spot.
[00:07:28] Gaetano DiNardi: Of course, it's not a super customized, tailored demo to their specific situation, but it's just enough to say, here's what inside the platform looks like.
[00:07:38] Gaetano DiNardi: What kind of question do you have that wasn't answered on the site?
[00:07:42] Gaetano DiNardi: Or you can share your screen and take me through what you want to go through and I'll answer it that way.
[00:07:48] Gaetano DiNardi: So cold browsing software is something that I've actually been nerding out and looking into quite a lot recently.
[00:07:56] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah.
[00:07:56] Gaetano DiNardi: Because the thing is, think about how much effort would have to go into a b, two b sales motion to get to that point.
[00:08:04] Gaetano DiNardi: First of all, they make you talk to a qualifier, SDR.
[00:08:08] Gaetano DiNardi: Inbound SDR.
[00:08:09] Gaetano DiNardi: You have to get qualified.
[00:08:11] Gaetano DiNardi: It's annoying.
[00:08:11] Gaetano DiNardi: You just have a question that SDR is probably not going to know the answer to that question.
[00:08:16] Gaetano DiNardi: Then it has to set you up with an AE.
[00:08:18] Gaetano DiNardi: Then you have to get to the point to when you talk to the AE and you're like, look, I just kind of really have a specific thing I want to know about.
[00:08:24] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah, I don't really need all this stuff just yet.
[00:08:28] Gaetano DiNardi: It takes too long to where you could just co browse and get to a specific thing.
[00:08:34] Gaetano DiNardi: How does this work?
[00:08:35] Gaetano DiNardi: How does that work?
[00:08:36] Gaetano DiNardi: Right.
[00:08:36] Gaetano DiNardi: So that's something I've been looking into.
[00:08:39] Ramli John: And that lowers the barrier.
[00:08:41] Ramli John: I'm guessing that cobrasing, you don't have to fill out a form or maybe it will be after, but it's like right there and then.
[00:08:48] Ramli John: And you're getting your questions answered by somebody in the back end.
[00:08:53] Ramli John: And you were sharing a screen with that.
[00:08:55] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah, exactly.
[00:08:56] Gaetano DiNardi: Instead of fill out form, give us information, then we'll show you.
[00:09:00] Gaetano DiNardi: We'll show you now and then if the call goes well.
[00:09:03] Gaetano DiNardi: Oh, by the way, can we keep in touch?
[00:09:05] Gaetano DiNardi: What's your info?
[00:09:06] Gaetano DiNardi: Right.
[00:09:07] Gaetano DiNardi: That kind of thing.
[00:09:11] Gaetano DiNardi: It's a different mechanism.
[00:09:13] Gaetano DiNardi: It's a different mechanism.

[00:09:14] The Power of Co-Browsing in B2B Sales

[00:09:14] Gaetano DiNardi: I would love to see more b.
[00:09:15] Gaetano DiNardi: Two B websites go down this path.
[00:09:17] Gaetano DiNardi: The one thing I worry about is the law of shitty click through effect where drift and Intercom, as soon as the first set of companies started using that little bot, you notice how everybody started using it, right?
[00:09:32] Gaetano DiNardi: And it just became like, this is the next thing that everybody's doing.
[00:09:36] Gaetano DiNardi: It's just now part of the game.
[00:09:38] Gaetano DiNardi: As soon as everybody starts doing cobrowsing, then right now it looks like drift and Intercom are dinosaurs compared to certain.
[00:09:48] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah, but it's only a matter of time before everybody starts using.
[00:09:53] Gaetano DiNardi: Then drift and Intercom develop co browsing capability and then co browsing is the next thing.
[00:10:00] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah, but until then, if you can be one of the companies that are ahead of that curve, deploy co browsing.
[00:10:06] Gaetano DiNardi: I think you'll have a leg up.
[00:10:08] Ramli John: In the game 100%.
[00:10:11] Ramli John: Have you been checking out tools around this?
[00:10:13] Ramli John: Or this has to be like homebrewed, home coded?
[00:10:16] Ramli John: Or are there like plug and play third parties tools that are enabling this?
[00:10:20] Ramli John: Because I'm so cool, I'm curious.
[00:10:23] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah, there's definitely softwares and tools out there that are doing this.
[00:10:27] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah, if you just go on Google and search, like cobrasing tools.
[00:10:31] Gaetano DiNardi: Cobrasing software, you'll see a whole list of them.
[00:10:34] Gaetano DiNardi: They're out there.
[00:10:35] Gaetano DiNardi: They're out.
[00:10:36] Gaetano DiNardi: It's.
[00:10:37] Gaetano DiNardi: I'm actually surprised that it hasn't caught on.
[00:10:40] Gaetano DiNardi: Like, I actually learned about this by looking at websites in different verticals.
[00:10:46] Gaetano DiNardi: So I was looking at car accident Miami lawyer websites.
[00:10:50] Ramli John: Okay.
[00:10:53] Gaetano DiNardi: Not that I was in one.
[00:10:54] Gaetano DiNardi: Just research.
[00:10:55] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah, just research.
[00:10:56] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah.
[00:10:56] Gaetano DiNardi: I look at industries like that and I'm like, the urgency behind this traffic got to be high.
[00:11:04] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah.
[00:11:05] Gaetano DiNardi: So conversion.
[00:11:07] Gaetano DiNardi: Conversion.
[00:11:08] Gaetano DiNardi: Conversion is the name of the.
[00:11:10] Gaetano DiNardi: These sites are probably the masters of conversion, given how valuable the traffic is, how much volume of it is, and how valuable it is.
[00:11:20] Gaetano DiNardi: So I started looking at these, like, car accident Miami, personal injury.
[00:11:24] Gaetano DiNardi: Miami, like personal injury.
[00:11:25] Gaetano DiNardi: This slip and fall, and I'm like, man, the conversion tactics on these sites are really good.
[00:11:32] Gaetano DiNardi: Really good.
[00:11:33] Gaetano DiNardi: Now, not all of them would be applicable to B.
[00:11:35] Gaetano DiNardi: To B.
[00:11:36] Gaetano DiNardi: But the ideas that you'll get by looking at stuff like that kind of opens your brain.
[00:11:41] Gaetano DiNardi: And that's where I saw co browsing.
[00:11:42] Gaetano DiNardi: Like, have a quick question.
[00:11:44] Gaetano DiNardi: Call us.
[00:11:45] Gaetano DiNardi: You think you might have a case?
[00:11:46] Gaetano DiNardi: Call us.
[00:11:47] Gaetano DiNardi: So instead of go, of course they have the forum option, but they also have like, call us.
[00:11:51] Gaetano DiNardi: The other thing they have a lot of is click to call, which we don't really do that enough on B two B.
[00:11:57] Gaetano DiNardi: In fact, some B two B sites have a phone number.
[00:11:59] Gaetano DiNardi: You call it and it goes nowhere.
[00:12:04] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah, right.
[00:12:05] Ramli John: Interesting.
[00:12:06] Ramli John: Yeah, that's super cool.
[00:12:08] Gaetano DiNardi: What's your take on it?
[00:12:09] Ramli John: Man, I love it.
[00:12:12] Ramli John: I thought you were going to say there's this whole boom around product.
[00:12:20] Gaetano DiNardi: Out.
[00:12:21] Ramli John: Of app product tours where you can play around with a product outside of it.
[00:12:25] Ramli John: I know.
[00:12:26] Ramli John: Shoot, I forgot which product is jellyfish or something like that.
[00:12:29] Ramli John: I know.
[00:12:31] Ramli John: They're starting to implement it.
[00:12:33] Gaetano DiNardi: Kyle Lacey's company.
[00:12:34] Ramli John: Yeah.
[00:12:35] Ramli John: Like a bunch of other tools that allows you to create product tours where people can click around even before they sign up for the product or free trial.
[00:12:43] Ramli John: This is like next level, like product led because you're giving value even before they sign up and even before they commit.
[00:12:53] Ramli John: So this is such a great example of give value before you pretty much value led approach to sales, essentially.
[00:13:04] Gaetano DiNardi: Absolutely, man.
[00:13:06] Gaetano DiNardi: I believe that we will eventually see the day where expensive B two B software products don't even really need too many engagements with sales unless there's a super complex deployment where there's a lot of use cases like internal and external and stuff like that for something like an ABM software that should be almost fully plug and play.
[00:13:29] Ramli John: You're right.
[00:13:30] Ramli John: Yeah, that makes sense.

[00:13:31] The Future of B2B Sales with Gaetano DiNardi

[00:13:31] Gaetano DiNardi: That's my take.
[00:13:32] Ramli John: That's a good take.
[00:13:34] Ramli John: I can imagine that.
[00:13:35] Ramli John: I think it's gearing more and more towards that, especially if you think about the last 510 years.
[00:13:42] Ramli John: I think the power has shifted from salespeople having all the information and now it's shifting more and more towards buyers.
[00:13:50] Ramli John: And this is like bringing it to a new level where just show me what I want to know right now without having to talk to your necessarily being jumping on a call with your sales team.
[00:14:00] Gaetano DiNardi: Dude, absolutely, man.
[00:14:01] Gaetano DiNardi: I mean think about outbound sales and where we are today.
[00:14:06] Gaetano DiNardi: Most of the calls, right.
[00:14:07] Gaetano DiNardi: Assuming that you hit the right ICP, you hit the decision maker or a person who's relevant.
[00:14:15] Gaetano DiNardi: The call script is good, you got good connect rates.
[00:14:20] Gaetano DiNardi: Most of what you're going to hear is this.
[00:14:24] Gaetano DiNardi: Oh, thank you.
[00:14:25] Gaetano DiNardi: That is a really compelling offer, but I just don't have an active project right now.
[00:14:30] Gaetano DiNardi: Maybe hit me up later.
[00:14:32] Gaetano DiNardi: You're also going to hear a lot of oh no, we're good with our current provider or we're locked in actually with a long term contract with your competitor.
[00:14:41] Gaetano DiNardi: Maybe when it's over or up for renewal we'll give you guys a look that may be one to two years down the road.
[00:14:48] Gaetano DiNardi: So the thing with that bound sales is like you have so much of that.
[00:14:52] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah, not right now.
[00:14:54] Ramli John: Right.
[00:14:54] Gaetano DiNardi: It's kind of reflective of the same thing with websites.
[00:14:57] Gaetano DiNardi: It's like, yeah, maybe not right now.
[00:14:58] Gaetano DiNardi: I'm just like checking.
[00:15:00] Gaetano DiNardi: So that's the challenge.
[00:15:02] Ramli John: Yeah, that is true.
[00:15:04] Ramli John: I'm going to go look up some, what did you call it?
[00:15:06] Ramli John: Cross browsing software.
[00:15:08] Gaetano DiNardi: Co browsing.
[00:15:09] Ramli John: Co browsing.
[00:15:10] Ramli John: That's cool.
[00:15:10] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah.
[00:15:11] Ramli John: I'm surprised you don't have a recommendation and affiliate link already ready to go.
[00:15:15] Gaetano DiNardi: Dude, I need one.
[00:15:16] Gaetano DiNardi: I need to hit this affiliate game hard.
[00:15:18] Ramli John: That's funny, dude, you're really talking about being value led here from the sales team.
[00:15:24] Ramli John: What can marketing and content do to enable more of that co browsing experience?
[00:15:32] Ramli John: I'm curious what your take is on what kind of content would drive people towards that experience, that future or that world that you're talking about where there isn't a lot of very minimal sales touch or calls is required to close big b to b sales.
[00:15:50] Gaetano DiNardi: Yes, I believe that from my experience.
[00:15:54] Gaetano DiNardi: What I'm noticing is there's not enough problem solution oriented content on b, two b websites and if there is, you have to dig very deep to find it.
[00:16:07] Gaetano DiNardi: So I was looking at an enterprise software website.
[00:16:11] Gaetano DiNardi: I'm going to go back to it.
[00:16:12] Gaetano DiNardi: I'm not going to state who they are, but I'm just going to look at it again for my memory and reference and tell you about their navigation and what they advertise.
[00:16:20] Ramli John: Okay.
[00:16:21] Gaetano DiNardi: So they have the product drop down menu, which is fairly standard.
[00:16:27] Gaetano DiNardi: They have a product overview link.
[00:16:29] Gaetano DiNardi: Then they have the naming conventions of the product.
[00:16:33] Gaetano DiNardi: When you go into the solutions menu, you see some really weird stuff.
[00:16:38] Gaetano DiNardi: You see things like revenue data, automation.
[00:16:43] Gaetano DiNardi: What is that?
[00:16:47] Gaetano DiNardi: Revenue strategy management.
[00:16:50] Gaetano DiNardi: What is that?
[00:16:51] Ramli John: Right.
[00:16:53] Gaetano DiNardi: I don't like that.
[00:16:54] Gaetano DiNardi: And I'm going to just go into this revenue strategy management page.
[00:16:58] Gaetano DiNardi: And it's literally just a page that says maximize revenue performance at every level.
[00:17:05] Gaetano DiNardi: And then it says boost revenue precision.
[00:17:09] Gaetano DiNardi: And then it says turn reps into quota crushers.
[00:17:13] Gaetano DiNardi: I mean, I still don't know what this is.
[00:17:16] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah, quota crushers.
[00:17:18] Gaetano DiNardi: I mean, I still don't know what the problem is.
[00:17:21] Gaetano DiNardi: I don't know what the problem is.
[00:17:23] Gaetano DiNardi: I would love to just see a drop down menu that says, here's the problems we solve, or problems we solve and then talk about the problem and then weave in the solution.
[00:17:34] Gaetano DiNardi: Like, I don't see what the problem is.
[00:17:36] Gaetano DiNardi: So I saw a really good example of this.
[00:17:39] Gaetano DiNardi: I'm going to call out this brand because they deserve to be called out on this positively.

[00:17:45] Improving Marketing Messaging with Value-Driven Segmentation

[00:17:45] Gaetano DiNardi: Okay.
[00:17:45] Gaetano DiNardi: All right.
[00:17:47] Gaetano DiNardi: Let me just make sure I have it.
[00:17:53] Gaetano DiNardi: Yes, I know we're kind of going into this off the cuff, but.
[00:17:57] Gaetano DiNardi: Lucidchart.
[00:17:58] Ramli John: Lucidchart.
[00:17:59] Gaetano DiNardi: Yes, Lucidchart.
[00:18:01] Gaetano DiNardi: Very good.
[00:18:02] Gaetano DiNardi: Go to their solutions, drop down.
[00:18:04] Gaetano DiNardi: You're going to see by need.
[00:18:07] Gaetano DiNardi: By need.
[00:18:08] Gaetano DiNardi: And then you're going to see improve processes, replace Vizio.
[00:18:15] Gaetano DiNardi: That's clever.
[00:18:17] Gaetano DiNardi: Visual technical systems.
[00:18:20] Gaetano DiNardi: I kind of get more of a vibe here that they're taking more of a jobs to be done approach.
[00:18:24] Ramli John: Yeah, I was going to say that.
[00:18:26] Gaetano DiNardi: And they're basically able to solution what they offer by problem or by job to be done or by need.
[00:18:36] Gaetano DiNardi: I also like that they have by team.
[00:18:40] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah.
[00:18:41] Gaetano DiNardi: Specifics around.
[00:18:42] Gaetano DiNardi: Who are you?
[00:18:42] Gaetano DiNardi: That's great.
[00:18:43] Gaetano DiNardi: But I love the by need.
[00:18:45] Gaetano DiNardi: I love the by need.
[00:18:47] Gaetano DiNardi: Right.
[00:18:47] Gaetano DiNardi: That's the way to do it.
[00:18:48] Gaetano DiNardi: That's the way to do it.
[00:18:49] Gaetano DiNardi: So I don't see enough of that.
[00:18:50] Gaetano DiNardi: So in terms of what you're asking is like, how can marketing get better at making it more value led shit like that?
[00:18:57] Gaetano DiNardi: Don't call it revenue data automation.
[00:19:01] Gaetano DiNardi: Call it problem.
[00:19:04] Ramli John: Right.
[00:19:05] Ramli John: That is so good.
[00:19:06] Ramli John: I've never saw any other companies who organize it by, I've seen it by teams, but not by need, like by those jobs you done that you mentioned.
[00:19:19] Ramli John: I'm going to highlight this even more in other places.
[00:19:22] Ramli John: And this really kind of helps segment when people do that co browsing experience.
[00:19:29] Ramli John: I bet you that the person on the other end, if they're smart, know what page they're coming from, and know what problem they're having or who they're from.
[00:19:37] Ramli John: So you're from marketing because you came from this or from engineering, which kind of like this helps kind of support that.
[00:19:45] Ramli John: Co browsing strategy is now what I'm calling it.
[00:19:48] Gaetano DiNardi: Co browsing strategy.
[00:19:50] Gaetano DiNardi: Exactly.
[00:19:51] Gaetano DiNardi: And dude, the other thing is, with the jobs to be done stuff, don't make it super top level fluff.
[00:19:58] Gaetano DiNardi: Don't make your drop down level your drop down menu by need be like, increase revenue, optimize cost.
[00:20:06] Gaetano DiNardi: It's like save time, deploy faster.
[00:20:12] Gaetano DiNardi: Okay, yeah, great.
[00:20:13] Gaetano DiNardi: But what's under that?
[00:20:16] Gaetano DiNardi: The how is missing?
[00:20:18] Gaetano DiNardi: What are we doing to get that outcome right?
[00:20:20] Gaetano DiNardi: Ultimately, creased revenue is the outcome of everything.
[00:20:24] Ramli John: Right.
[00:20:25] Gaetano DiNardi: So what is it that you're doing underneath that layer of the onion which makes it happen?
[00:20:31] Ramli John: That makes sense.
[00:20:32] Ramli John: I love how you're talking about this.
[00:20:34] Ramli John: Talking about jobs to be done.
[00:20:35] Ramli John: And this focuses on segmentation.

[00:20:39] Content strategy based on sales calls

[00:20:39] Ramli John: On the content side.
[00:20:40] Ramli John: Is there anything that can pull people towards those buy need products?
[00:20:45] Ramli John: I'm curious what you think about more.
[00:20:49] Ramli John: Would you say this is probably more like mid to bottom funnel value led content?
[00:20:53] Ramli John: What would drive people towards this pages, I guess, so to speak.
[00:20:58] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah, absolutely, man.
[00:21:01] Gaetano DiNardi: One example of something that you might not consider to be immediate problem solving.
[00:21:08] Gaetano DiNardi: But think about this RFP template.
[00:21:15] Gaetano DiNardi: If you're buying complex enterprise software, it usually requires RFP, right?
[00:21:23] Gaetano DiNardi: And sometimes companies don't really have that on hand.
[00:21:26] Gaetano DiNardi: So I've produced the VoIP software RFP template, the LMS RFP template, and that has been a gold mine, right.
[00:21:36] Gaetano DiNardi: That's helpful.
[00:21:37] Gaetano DiNardi: And value led pain point troubleshooting related content for technical products always kills it.
[00:21:46] Gaetano DiNardi: So I did like a voiceover ip troubleshooting guide, stuff like that.
[00:21:51] Gaetano DiNardi: X is not working.
[00:21:53] Gaetano DiNardi: How do I fix it?
[00:21:54] Gaetano DiNardi: Vpn not working, all those kinds of things that can funnel people into problem and pain.
[00:22:01] Gaetano DiNardi: The other thing is like, I read this book, gap selling by Keenan.
[00:22:09] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah.
[00:22:09] Gaetano DiNardi: He promotes this concept of the problem identification chart in his book.
[00:22:15] Gaetano DiNardi: And the idea is that, let's say you're selling SEO services or SEO software, there's only so many problems people have.
[00:22:26] Gaetano DiNardi: Like you should know every single possible problem, you should know the impact of the problem, and you should know the root causes associated with each problem.
[00:22:35] Gaetano DiNardi: And that can be the actual beginning framework for a really powerful content strategy.
[00:22:41] Gaetano DiNardi: For example, organic traffic is not producing revenue.
[00:22:46] Gaetano DiNardi: This probably means you're just targeting all top upon all topics, right?
[00:22:50] Gaetano DiNardi: So producing solution oriented content around that theme, yeah, we're investing in content.
[00:22:57] Gaetano DiNardi: Traffic is growing, but we're not producing any revenue.
[00:23:00] Gaetano DiNardi: That is a powerful, it may be hard to identify that in terms of a target keyword.
[00:23:06] Gaetano DiNardi: Like you're not going to find that in a keyword research tool, but that is a real problem that areas of SEO software would have.
[00:23:14] Gaetano DiNardi: And so that can be a theme.
[00:23:16] Gaetano DiNardi: So basically theming content around problems rather than keywords could be a powerful way to drive them into that buy me jobs based approach.
[00:23:28] Ramli John: That makes sense.
[00:23:29] Ramli John: And this goes back to once again, you're kind of starting to declare the intent that those specific group of people, if they came through content around a specific job to be done or a problem or intent, and then they go to like, you funnel them towards this page that is around that specific product page or solution page around that, and that gets them more.
[00:23:56] Ramli John: That's a lot of information for your sales and even that co browsing strategy to help them drive like, okay, I understand your problem because you checked out this content, this blog post, and now you're on this page.
[00:24:11] Ramli John: Here is how we can help you is what I'm exactly hearing from this bigger content demand strategy rather than being all over the place with keywords.
[00:24:21] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah, exactly.
[00:24:22] Gaetano DiNardi: That's definitely one of the best ways.
[00:24:25] Gaetano DiNardi: If your company records sales calls, then that's where you should be living.
[00:24:29] Gaetano DiNardi: Just go into gong and type problem to the transcription box and sort for all the sections of calls where the word problem comes up.
[00:24:42] Gaetano DiNardi: You're going to be amazed at what you see, right?
[00:24:45] Gaetano DiNardi: You're going to see so many things in there.
[00:24:47] Gaetano DiNardi: It's kind of a rabbit hole exercise because you're going to type problem, then you're going to start seeing, I'm just going to use the cybersecurity example.
[00:24:54] Gaetano DiNardi: We're going to start seeing things like hack dark web password, all this kind of stuff.
[00:25:01] Gaetano DiNardi: Then you're going to dive deeper into those sections and you're going to go into dark web and then you're going to find what keeps coming up over and over again.
[00:25:10] Gaetano DiNardi: Association with dark web is dark web alert.
[00:25:14] Gaetano DiNardi: Now I'm realizing, okay, dark web alert.
[00:25:17] Gaetano DiNardi: There's something about this, customers are getting dark web alerts of nor antivirus, but it's alerting them to the thing fast enough or it's giving them not actionable advice on, hey, we did find a dark web alert that's not clear on what needs to be done or I got a dark web alert and I was still hacked.
[00:25:39] Ramli John: Right.
[00:25:40] Gaetano DiNardi: So that's automatic.
[00:25:42] Gaetano DiNardi: Okay.
[00:25:43] Gaetano DiNardi: A lot of content around the pains and problems associated with dark web alerts.
[00:25:47] Gaetano DiNardi: What is a dark web alert?
[00:25:49] Gaetano DiNardi: What happens if you get one?
[00:25:51] Gaetano DiNardi: All that kind of stuff.
[00:25:53] Gaetano DiNardi: So that's the way I approach the problem, specific angles, and it almost feels.
[00:26:00] Ramli John: Like a web where there's the main idea, dark web alert, and then it kind of starts branching out almost like a spider map.
[00:26:09] Ramli John: Is that what you call it?
[00:26:10] Ramli John: Or like this mind map essentially, of what exactly?
[00:26:15] Gaetano DiNardi: Now, of course you could probably find some of that with keyword research, but it might take you longer.
[00:26:21] Gaetano DiNardi: Or you may not find it at all.
[00:26:23] Gaetano DiNardi: Who knows, right?
[00:26:23] Gaetano DiNardi: You may get distracted listening to calls also tells you, like, if 30% of all inbound prospect calls talk about dark web, that's significant.
[00:26:35] Gaetano DiNardi: That means we got to make that a pillar in our content strategy, right?
[00:26:38] Gaetano DiNardi: If 50% of our calls are mentioning this, that part of it.
[00:26:45] Gaetano DiNardi: So that's kind of the way I approach it.
[00:26:47] Ramli John: And the other great thing about this is like people don't have to guess exactly what the term is because they've said it straight from the customer or prospect's mouth as to is it dark web?
[00:26:59] Ramli John: Is it something else?
[00:27:01] Ramli John: But by starting from sales calls rather than just keyword research, you're actually getting a ton more information because you're basing it off real life calls from people who are having that specific problems.
[00:27:17] Gaetano DiNardi: Exactly.
[00:27:20] Ramli John: It's interesting you're saying this.
[00:27:21] Ramli John: I think you have this very strong content and SEO and demand background and you're like, guys start here rather than keyword research, which is, I'm sure there's a hot take there somewhere because a lot of seos way back there, I'm not sure things are changing, it seems, because what's happening with search generative stuff.
[00:27:44] Ramli John: But I think this is an interesting take that you're having here.
[00:27:48] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah, well, the other reality on that is it's just getting harder to rank.
[00:27:54] Gaetano DiNardi: The rich get richer and the poor get poorer in SEO.
[00:27:58] Gaetano DiNardi: That's just the way it goes.
[00:28:01] Gaetano DiNardi: If you don't, the brand power, the domain strength, the links, the mentions.
[00:28:10] Gaetano DiNardi: Right.
[00:28:10] Gaetano DiNardi: Like all that stuff plays a huge factor.
[00:28:12] Gaetano DiNardi: So if you're a small ball trying to go against the big dogs.
[00:28:17] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah, exactly.
[00:28:20] Gaetano DiNardi: You have to go as long tail as possible.
[00:28:22] Gaetano DiNardi: And it just so happens to be the case.
[00:28:25] Gaetano DiNardi: Pain point stuff happens to be very long tail.
[00:28:30] Gaetano DiNardi: That's the way it goes.
[00:28:32] Ramli John: It also seems like the larger a company becomes, the more, what did you call that company again?
[00:28:40] Ramli John: Start making random words that doesn't make sense because they got the brand.
[00:28:45] Ramli John: But there's a right.
[00:28:48] Ramli John: Is that something you've noticed where larger companies end up like revenue attribution model?
[00:28:53] Ramli John: I'm like, what does that even mean?
[00:28:55] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah, exactly.
[00:28:57] Gaetano DiNardi: I think they start listening too much to analysts and not enough to the voice of the customer.
[00:29:04] Gaetano DiNardi: And that can be a huge problem.
[00:29:07] Gaetano DiNardi: That can be a huge problem.
[00:29:09] Gaetano DiNardi: There was a guy named Dave Kellogg.
[00:29:11] Gaetano DiNardi: He's like one of the really smart executive influencer guys in the world of b two B marketing.
[00:29:18] Gaetano DiNardi: He produces a lot of executive board level kind of content and he had a really great quote.

[00:29:25] The Importance of Listening to Customers in Product Marketing

[00:29:25] Gaetano DiNardi: I can't remember it off the top of my head, but it was something to the effect of like, let analysts be analysts.
[00:29:32] Gaetano DiNardi: Product marketers should just listen to customers.
[00:29:34] Gaetano DiNardi: Don't let the analyst glints rather, I guess you could say, even to an extent poison your thinking.
[00:29:41] Ramli John: Wow.
[00:29:42] Gaetano DiNardi: And it hit really well.
[00:29:44] Gaetano DiNardi: I think that was like a perfect way to summarize it.
[00:29:46] Gaetano DiNardi: So that revenue data automation stuff, just save that for the birds.
[00:29:54] Ramli John: I guess.
[00:29:54] Ramli John: I think the other thing.
[00:29:55] Ramli John: Yeah, you're right.
[00:29:56] Ramli John: I think by making up new terms they're hoping to create.
[00:30:00] Ramli John: I'm guessing you have this.
[00:30:01] Ramli John: I think I read somewhere around, like, creating a new category.
[00:30:04] Ramli John: I feel like you have a take there where creating that new category is super hard and you're thinking like, you're creating this new term and category.
[00:30:14] Gaetano DiNardi: And.
[00:30:15] Ramli John: It'S not problem focused.
[00:30:16] Ramli John: It's not going to fly as well.
[00:30:18] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah, I mean, actually see too many people these days, like pushing the whole create a category narrative.
[00:30:26] Gaetano DiNardi: I think it's kind of going down.
[00:30:29] Gaetano DiNardi: I think in terms of where we are today, efficiency and lean growth has become way more important than let's create a category.
[00:30:38] Gaetano DiNardi: I think create a category has been associated with highly risky.
[00:30:43] Ramli John: It is.
[00:30:44] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah, it's highly risky because if you just wasted time, resources, money, the list kind of just goes on and on.
[00:30:54] Gaetano DiNardi: So, yeah, I don't know if I have a strong opinion at the moment regarding category creation.
[00:30:59] Gaetano DiNardi: I just seem to observe that it's far less important than it once was.
[00:31:03] Ramli John: Yeah, I love that.

[00:31:06] Value Led Content in Marketing

[00:31:06] Ramli John: Well, this is a great chat about this whole value led content.
[00:31:10] Ramli John: I actually want to shift gears and talk about career power ups.
[00:31:13] Ramli John: Now, you've been in marketing way over a decade, having worked with as growth advisor, marketing leader at companies like cognizant, Pipedrive, Nextiva, as both an advisor and marketing leader in some of these companies, I'm curious, what's a power up that's helped you accelerate your career?
[00:31:31] Ramli John: It could be something that is softer skills of marketing, or it could be like a very harder skill of marketing, so to speak.
[00:31:40] Gaetano DiNardi: It's a great one.
[00:31:41] Gaetano DiNardi: It's a great one.
[00:31:43] Gaetano DiNardi: Maybe I'll give you one soft skill.
[00:31:45] Gaetano DiNardi: One hard skill.
[00:31:47] Gaetano DiNardi: On the soft skill front, I would say that at kind of like an individual level, having a great mentor has really been huge.
[00:32:01] Ramli John: Interesting.
[00:32:04] Gaetano DiNardi: There's really two guys, I think, of one guy.
[00:32:07] Gaetano DiNardi: His name is Joshua Giardino.
[00:32:10] Gaetano DiNardi: When I was really young in the marketing game, he saw me as someone that had a lot of potential, and he kind of just took me under his wing.
[00:32:19] Gaetano DiNardi: We worked together, then we separated in terms of company, but we still kept in touch.
[00:32:24] Gaetano DiNardi: And just having regular catch mean, that has been so huge for me, and just grew a bond and became really good friends.
[00:32:33] Gaetano DiNardi: And then the CMO of Nextiva yanis, he taught me a lot, and he really definitely coached me on a lot of stuff, and he gave me room to spread wings and kind of grow.
[00:32:46] Gaetano DiNardi: So having a mentor is huge.
[00:32:48] Gaetano DiNardi: On the team leader side, the number one thing in terms of power up is get in the trenches with the team.
[00:32:56] Gaetano DiNardi: Don't be too managerial, don't be too high level strategy.
[00:33:00] Gaetano DiNardi: Don't be too cool to get your hands dirty.
[00:33:04] Gaetano DiNardi: Earning the respect of the team is key, and there's no better way to do that than actually getting in the trenches, doing stuff.
[00:33:11] Gaetano DiNardi: Hosting workshops, landing tear downs, keyword research, analysis, deep dives in, paid search, all that kind of stuff is key.
[00:33:22] Gaetano DiNardi: That's the soft skill side for the power ups, mentor and be a player coach.
[00:33:28] Gaetano DiNardi: On the hard skill stuff, I think the be a player coach actually leans into the hard skill, which is don't lose your abilities.
[00:33:41] Gaetano DiNardi: If you're a butcher, don't forget how to slice up a stick kind of thing.
[00:33:45] Gaetano DiNardi: You know what I mean?
[00:33:46] Gaetano DiNardi: If you're a guitar player, don't forget how to do a minor scale.
[00:33:51] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah.
[00:33:52] Gaetano DiNardi: Keep the fundamentals sharp by practicing and utilizing the tool set that you have, the skill set that you have, you just become a strategy spreadsheet warrior.
[00:34:08] Gaetano DiNardi: You'll forget how to use software and tools and how to get data.
[00:34:15] Gaetano DiNardi: I once had a marketing leader that I reported into that didn't even know how to check how much traffic the site was getting.
[00:34:22] Ramli John: Wow.
[00:34:22] Gaetano DiNardi: Would hit me up like, hey, how much traffic did we get this month?
[00:34:25] Gaetano DiNardi: Are you kidding me?
[00:34:26] Gaetano DiNardi: You don't know how to look that up yourself in 2 seconds.
[00:34:28] Gaetano DiNardi: So that's the power up on the hard skill is actually by being a player coach, you stay up to date on the latest tools, on the latest techniques, what's working, what's not for example, for me, the next thing I got to do is Master Ga four.
[00:34:43] Gaetano DiNardi: I haven't done it yet.
[00:34:45] Gaetano DiNardi: I need to get in there and figure that out.
[00:34:47] Gaetano DiNardi: So it's just like staying sharp with regard to the actual tool set.
[00:34:53] Gaetano DiNardi: I think that is the best power up I can say for.
[00:34:59] Ramli John: Like to double click on the first one around.
[00:35:01] Ramli John: Mentors.
[00:35:01] Ramli John: I've had some great mentors in my past and some here who are more informal mentors, so to speak.
[00:35:10] Ramli John: It wasn't like, hey, you want to be my mentor?
[00:35:12] Ramli John: More like it just happened organically where we just caught up a few times for people who are tuning in who are maybe younger in their career, do you have any tips for them to find mentor?
[00:35:24] Ramli John: How did you find yours?
[00:35:25] Ramli John: Did it just happen organically like it happened to mine where they were my boss?
[00:35:29] Ramli John: Or was it like you actually reach.
[00:35:31] Gaetano DiNardi: Out to a few folks?
[00:35:32] Gaetano DiNardi: It definitely happened organically.
[00:35:35] Gaetano DiNardi: I never made it like a priority to say, oh, I admire this person.
[00:35:39] Gaetano DiNardi: I want them to mentor me.
[00:35:42] Gaetano DiNardi: I guess that could work.
[00:35:43] Gaetano DiNardi: I think it's harder to make that work.
[00:35:45] Gaetano DiNardi: I think people are really busy today.
[00:35:48] Gaetano DiNardi: I don't know who's going to take time out of their busy schedules to just randomly mentor unless you pay them, right, exactly.
[00:35:59] Gaetano DiNardi: My advice would be like, just let it happen organically through people you meet in companies, bosses who you become really close with, partners, whoever, just trying to latch on to people who you have good chemistry with and see where it goes.
[00:36:15] Gaetano DiNardi: That's the best advice.
[00:36:17] Ramli John: And you've been very generous.

[00:36:19] Building Credibility and Trust as a Consultant or Advisor

[00:36:19] Ramli John: I think I saw that you tweeted that a lot of people have been asking you about becoming an advisor or solopreneur, and I feel like that's the other side to it would be.
[00:36:29] Ramli John: There are some people who have gone into a certain level who wouldn't mind spending like five to ten minutes just chatting somebody, a younger marketer.
[00:36:38] Ramli John: So is that what you have been doing with your time?
[00:36:41] Ramli John: Especially if it's a younger marketer who might be just up and coming, so to speak.
[00:36:47] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah, everybody wants to quit their job and be an advisor now.
[00:36:51] Ramli John: I saw that tweet.
[00:36:53] Ramli John: Especially nowadays.
[00:36:55] Gaetano DiNardi: Especially nowadays, nobody wants to work for a company anymore.
[00:37:00] Gaetano DiNardi: They want be the cool super consultant, work with all the cool companies, speak at all the events, get all the fame, all that kind of crap.
[00:37:14] Gaetano DiNardi: The way I would think about it is this for me, this just kind of happened.
[00:37:20] Gaetano DiNardi: I didn't wake up one day and say like, yeah, I'm going to do this.
[00:37:27] Gaetano DiNardi: I didn't have a plan for it either.
[00:37:30] Gaetano DiNardi: So the way it all unfolded was that I kind of did the whole build in public thing while I was at company.
[00:37:39] Gaetano DiNardi: I made it a point to like, no matter what full time role I had as an in house tech marketer that I told myself going into it that my goal in here is not to graduate, to become CMO of the company and raise myself in the corporate ladder system.
[00:37:54] Gaetano DiNardi: It's let me get out of this company with a success story.
[00:37:59] Gaetano DiNardi: I need to write a success story.
[00:38:02] Gaetano DiNardi: So I'm not doing this for accolades on internal clapping or appraise.
[00:38:07] Gaetano DiNardi: I'm not even expecting to get a huge salary increase or whatever.
[00:38:12] Gaetano DiNardi: My goal is not to stay here for ten years and rise through the ranks.
[00:38:17] Gaetano DiNardi: My goal is to stay here for like three years, crush it and have an insane success story for myself.
[00:38:24] Gaetano DiNardi: When I came in here was the landscape.
[00:38:26] Gaetano DiNardi: When I left here was the landscape, right.
[00:38:29] Gaetano DiNardi: All the stuff that happened in between, this is what we did to make that happen and then publish that and make people say, wow, this guy went into a tough environment.
[00:38:38] Gaetano DiNardi: He was dealing with all this crap.
[00:38:40] Gaetano DiNardi: He had the cards dealt against his and he was able to come out and defy the ods and accomplish this really cool thing.
[00:38:50] Gaetano DiNardi: Whether that's pipeline growth, whether that's traffic growth, that's content strategy implementation and technical stuff, whatever the case may be.
[00:39:00] Gaetano DiNardi: And while you're doing that in public, you start to grow a network little by little by little by little.
[00:39:08] Gaetano DiNardi: And so doing that three consecutive times over like five, six years, the next natural progression was, well, I'm kind of well known enough at this point.
[00:39:18] Gaetano DiNardi: I have enough credibility, right.
[00:39:21] Gaetano DiNardi: I've got a good foundation.
[00:39:23] Gaetano DiNardi: I think it kind of makes sense to just do some consulting.
[00:39:27] Gaetano DiNardi: And that has a natural flywheel effect in that you do great work for a client, you publish a case study on that, or you share great results, then you get referrals, then more people come inbound asking you for help.
[00:39:42] Gaetano DiNardi: Then you become well known for solving that paid search, SEO, inbound growth, whatever.
[00:39:49] Gaetano DiNardi: And then it just kind of keeps going.
[00:39:51] Gaetano DiNardi: And so I don't ever really have, yeah, I'm blessed to say I don't have to do outbound.
[00:39:58] Gaetano DiNardi: I can sustain myself on my own just through the referral system.
[00:40:02] Gaetano DiNardi: So that's the advice in terms of like, if you actually do want to think about going on your own, so to speak, you got to have a little something behind you.
[00:40:11] Gaetano DiNardi: You can't just wake up from day one and make this happen because it's hard.
[00:40:16] Gaetano DiNardi: Clients care a lot about credibility and track record.
[00:40:19] Gaetano DiNardi: If you don't have that, it's going to be really tough to convince them that you're the right choice.
[00:40:24] Gaetano DiNardi: Even if you run a flawless sales process and your offer is super compelling, you're going to lose to a guy like me nine out of ten times.
[00:40:32] Gaetano DiNardi: I hate to say it, but they're much more often going to choose me just because I've got the credentials.
[00:40:39] Gaetano DiNardi: So that's just what it comes down to, man.
[00:40:42] Gaetano DiNardi: What do you think?
[00:40:43] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah, I agree.
[00:40:43] Ramli John: I think there's less risk.
[00:40:45] Ramli John: I think that's why people buy software, that it's not actually great experience, it's just because it has a bigger brand name.
[00:40:53] Ramli John: I don't want to call it any software products because they might get mad at me, but exactly that they're buying you because you are trusted.
[00:41:02] Ramli John: And it did risk the situation where like, hey, I'm hiring this guy Tano.
[00:41:07] Ramli John: It's like why?
[00:41:08] Ramli John: Well, he's worked with a bunch of companies that we know of.
[00:41:11] Ramli John: Nextiva.
[00:41:11] Ramli John: There's a bunch of other stuff here.
[00:41:12] Ramli John: He's done this, he's achieved this versus somebody who has not achieved that.
[00:41:16] Ramli John: So I think that's exactly what I would suggest to folks to build an audience before you make the leap.
[00:41:24] Ramli John: I think it kind of derives the situation and build a Persona or a personal brand like what you have been doing.
[00:41:30] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah, well, thanks man.
[00:41:32] Gaetano DiNardi: Appreciate that.
[00:41:35] Gaetano DiNardi: To your point on that timeless saying, nobody ever got fired for buying IBM.
[00:41:44] Gaetano DiNardi: Yeah, exactly.
[00:41:44] Ramli John: That's it.
[00:41:46] Gaetano DiNardi: I think that's probably what you had in mind.
[00:41:47] Gaetano DiNardi: Not to say that I'm nothing like IBM, but to your point, it's like, yeah, you bought a trusted name brand that's probably going to be more likely to get support throughout a company rather than, hey, we want to buy this no name startup tool.
[00:42:06] Gaetano DiNardi: It's like, I've never heard of that.

[00:42:08] Marketing Powerups with Ramli John: Episode 7 - Gong, Cognism, Workivo

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