Jeremy Moser's 3-part copywriting framework (hook, lesson, emotion)

[00:00:00] Ramli John: Copywriting— it's landing pages, ads, social media posts, and more. If cash is the lifeblood of a business, then the heart of marketing is copywriting. Get it right and you have a higher chance of grabbing people's attention and turning them into customers. Today we'll be digging into Jeremy Moser's three part copywriting framework that's helped him grow Twitter followers from 300 to 90,000 followers in 8 months.

[00:00:25] It's also made him millions of dollars for his clients at uSERP.io. And it's helped him become one of Forbes 30 under 30 in marketing and advertising. In this Marketing Powerups episode, you'll learn: First, why copywriting is one of the most potent power ups for marketers. Second, Jeremy's 3-part copywriting framework.

[00:00:44] Third, how Jeremy applies this framework to his tweets. And number four, how marketers can find mentors to help them accelerate their career. For each episode, I create a powerups cheatsheet you can use now, fill in, and apply the marketing concepts to your business right away. Go to marketingpowerups.com to get those right now.

[00:01:04] Are you ready? Let's go. 

[00:01:06] Announcer: Marketing power ups. Ready? Go. Here's your host, Ramli John. 

[00:01:18] Ramli John: Let's talk about Marketing Powerups. And one of the things that you have done such a great job on Twitter is writing threads and tweets. Some of your most popular tweets and threads are about copywriting. Why is copywriting such a huge powerup for marketers who are tuning in?

[00:01:37] Why is this so important? I know it's obvious to some marketers, but for others why copywriting? 

[00:01:44] Jeremy Moser: Yeah, absolutely. It's a really good question. It goes back to really what is the definition of copywriting and how can you use that in different fields that you're working within?

[00:01:52] So copywriting, you really want to think of it as just written words that are meant to drive a specific outcome. So really that could be anything from the more sales use perspective of you're writing a really long form landing page that you're you're trying to convince someone to buy something that's relevant to.

[00:02:08] or it could even be a simple email that you're sending to someone for marketing purposes. Maybe it's simple email marketing or even just a singular tweet is copywriting, right? Like your goal there is to drive a certain outcome or a certain action from the individual that's reading it. . So in the case of like social media or Twitter or anything like that, your goal there maybe is for someone to respond or reply or maybe it's for them to DM you or maybe it's for them to just like the tweet and retweet it.

[00:02:33] So all these sort of little ways that you're phrasing things and structuring things for their perspective are really key to driving results and outcomes. And so copywriting is just a really a key thing to know across any sort of marketing sphere, even if you're not even directly related to marketing in your role.

[00:02:49] Maybe it's more communications based or PR based. Everything you're doing from a written standpoint is really with the goal of advancing a conversation or getting someone to do an outcome that you're looking for. And so knowing copywriting and learning how to utilize it in the tools and trades that you're working within.

[00:03:06] Just really key for advancing what you're looking to do, your agendas, how you want to structure your marketing, what actions you want people to take. And so I think learning copywriting, even if it's from the ground up, is just a key skill that you can adapt and apply to a lot of stuff that you do in marketing as a whole.

[00:03:22] Ramli John: When you were speaking around copywriting to drive people to action, that's really at the heart of marketing, right? Yeah. We want them to take action we just, we want to entertain them, we wanna educate them, but at the end of the day, the next step is take action. Whether that's to like something or to sign up or do something else.

[00:03:40] That's what you're getting at there is that it's at the heart of marketing, trying to get people to act. And copywriting is what we have as a tool, not we don't pick up the phone and call people. 

[00:03:49] Jeremy Moser: Yeah, absolutely. And it's been a, it's not a new concept copywriting has been around for, ever since the written word.

[00:03:55] And so the idea is really just how do you adapt that to modern marketing mixes that you're. and really how do you tune that writing and that copywriting for a different audience or a different style at different stage of the buying journey. That'll all come into play of what tools you use in the marketing mix and how you phrase your copywriting, what kind of frameworks you use within it.

[00:04:14] Ramli John: One of the I things I heard was copywriting for email, it appears on landing pages on social. Would you say that those copywriting for landing pages is totally different from let's say, not necessarily totally different, but different than let's say, copywriting. 

[00:04:27] Tweets. 

[00:04:28] Jeremy Moser: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:04:29] There's definitely key differences there. For example, I'll use different frameworks and baseline goals obviously for those landing pages versus tweets. So if it's more of a generalized tweet, maybe I'm really looking to drive action on like replies and engagement. Maybe I'm looking to get.

[00:04:45] people within a certain audience or ideal customer profile to respond to me, start a conversation. Maybe that's taking it to the dms after. And so really the goals there are a little more based on top of the funnel and awareness. What is some sort of topic that I wanna focus on and how do I get people to respond within that?

[00:05:02] So maybe that's, Around like a cool framework I used, or maybe it's around tactics and real world results. Maybe it's around asking them a specific question or sparking more discussion on something, whereas maybe a landing page. My goal there is almost certainly to drive some sort of conversion action.

[00:05:18] So depending on what stage of the funnel I'm in, if I'm if this landing page is more for a soft cta, like getting an email sign up, my copywriting is gonna be a little more geared towards maybe learning or how they can fill in gaps in their own knowledge. Whereas if my landing page is a little more directed towards getting someone to actually buy something from.

[00:05:38] my copywriting there is gonna look really different. It's gonna be more on pain points on agitating those pain points and then providing them a potential solution there that fits with their goals. So you can utilize all sorts of cool different copywriting frameworks based on really what platform you're on, who you're talking to, and all these kind of various factors 

[00:05:55] Ramli John: That makes sense. I love how you're adapting it for the audience and what stage of the funnel.

[00:05:59] So it really isn't a you one size fits all approach. But I wanna zone in on one of the tweets that you shared. Great marketing copy has three elements. You mentioned that it has hook, lesson, and emotion. Can you talk a little bit about this formula, how you came across it? Is it from somewhere else that you've seen or is it like something that you saw over and over again as a pattern that works well?

[00:06:25] Maybe on Twitter or landing pages or other places? 

[00:06:27] Jeremy Moser: Yeah, absolutely. This is one framework I've used for a long time. I haven't seen it necessarily anywhere, but I've probably piecemealed it over time from like different areas. The hook is definitely a key factor and we're really seeing it become even more important as there's just more noise on social channels, especially.

[00:06:43] There's more noise everywhere, right from basic things like Twitter. . When you scroll your timeline, there's all these threads and all these things from different creators and everything's super noisy. When you look at things like LinkedIn, your DM inbox is filled with sales pitches that are like, Hey, let's jump on a 30 minute call.

[00:06:59] No one wants to get on those calls, so you really need to rethink, you know how you're going about your copywriting as a whole, and I think this framework of hook lesson emotion is a really good way to do that. So the hook is really meant for you to grab attention from a very specific, So think through what is your audience, what's your ideal customer?

[00:07:17] And again, think with the end in mind is really key when starting with whatever copy you're writing. So what's the end goal that you want a specific audience group to take once they finish reading this? And so that'll obviously dictate everything you're doing in the hook. So let's say you're trying to maybe educate consumer.

[00:07:34] Super top of the funnel. You're just trying to get people engaged with maybe SEO as a whole. How do I do content distribution with an SEO framework in mind? So your hook there might be a little bit more on, okay, here's what I did for a hundred different companies. Here's how you can get started with that process.

[00:07:52] Your hook there is really showcasing experience. It's showcasing how they can get. . So again, you're tailoring that hook really specifically to a given audience and you're grabbing their attention quick. So if you can use things like numbers, real world, actionable advice, data, things that you've actually implemented.

[00:08:08] So please don't use any like fake statistics. I know we've been seeing that on Twitter a bunch. So try to use real world data there. That's just gonna give your argument much more credence and value down the line, obviously. And then within the lesson portion, another thing we're really seeing that's key with copywriting is what can you teach someone, right?

[00:08:25] So if you're giving this amazing hook, you obviously wanna be able to deliver on that. Otherwise you're just click baiting people. And so the lesson portion there is really what can you teach someone for free? What can you educate them on? How can you build that trust long term? And a lot of that trust.

[00:08:40] Is built by providing really valuable free information. And a lot of people get a little bit too concerned with the idea of giving information away for free. But if you look online all the keys to success in business marketing, whatever you're doing, are really available for free online or in books, YouTube videos, whatever it is, right?

[00:08:59] And we find that a lot of people don't necessarily take action on that. So I wouldn't be super worried about giving away a lot of information for free. I think the good whale that you get from giving away that free information. Down the line is gonna compound really quickly. So within that lesson portion of the framework there, really just think through what can I teach this group?

[00:09:17] What can I teach this audience? What are they gonna benefit from this? And really give them something that's actually valuable and not super surface level. And then the last kind of key component there for long-term success is really around emotion. So how can you actually connect with people beyond, like sharing surface level tweets or whatever it is.

[00:09:36] Like how do you actually build a deeper relationship with someone? How do you get them to stick around and come back for more? , and usually that comes from some sort of emotion, whether that's a storytelling aspect to it that you're sharing, like your journey, you're sharing a customer journey, something that brings them into a little bit more than just seeing you as a source of information, but seeing you as a trusted ally.

[00:09:56] So that's usually what I like to think of as the emotions standpoint is. , it could be as simple as a really quick story, or it could be as detailed as a really big customer case study depending on what stage you're looking at. 

[00:10:08] Ramli John: What's fascinating is I find that this is like how friendships naturally evolve.

[00:10:12] First you hook, not necessarily hook them. You have a common interests, where you talk about marketing or rock climbing or something like that. And as you progress, you teach, start learning from each other. And then the last is connect on an emotional level. Is that, was that deliberate?

[00:10:29] It seems like this is the, how you would lay out like building a relationship with a real, per a in in-person friendship or even an completely 

[00:10:38] an online friendship? 

[00:10:39] Jeremy Moser: Yeah, absolutely. I think the best, some of the best copywriting is really just touching on actual relationships, actual conversations that you have in real life, right?

[00:10:47] I think that's really the basis for the best copywriting is stuff that feels natural to you. So when you read, you go on a site, or maybe it's a landing page you jump on and you see an email that comes. The most unnatural stuff where they're using language that just doesn't apply or they're using stuff that's like clearly overly promotional or like implied scarcity that is just like, seems unrealistic.

[00:11:07] A lot of this stuff is things that maybe used to work but don't work now. And really people are going back to the fundamentals of. , is this like a real thing I can trust? Is this a person that I actually like engaging with? Do I believe their story? Are these real conversations that I'd have with them in real life?

[00:11:23] And I think this framework here really mirrors that essentially and shows you that just a real normal conversation with another human and seeing can I actually help this person and what value do I have to provide to. Really gets you so much further than trying to use gimmicks or tactics.

[00:11:39] Ramli John: One of your most popular tweets has over 2,200 likes. Is this tweet here that says Copywriting tip. If you wouldn't use a phrase in real conversations, don't use it in your marketing copy. I feel like this encapsulates a lot of the things that you mentioned in that. Framework. Can you talk a little bit about this tweet and why it, it performs so well as you break it down?

[00:12:01] Jeremy Moser: Yeah, absolutely. I think what we're seeing now, especially I mostly hang out in B2B SaaS sectors, and so you tend to see really cheesy copywriting around like, how do I supercharge things, or how do I all these These buzzwords that just really don't mean anything. Like you'll go on a landing page, you'll read the headline, and you have no clue what the company actually does and what value they can provide to you.

[00:12:25] And it's only until you read like further down the page that you actually understand what they do. And so I think this is where that tweet really stemmed from is that if you're not using these actual words in real conversations with your customers, with your team, the people that have actually used the product, and you should not be using them to market to your own potential.

[00:12:43] Ideal customer profile. So it really goes back to talk more to your audience, talk more with your existing customers, learn how they actually use and describe your product. Talk to your own product development or even your sales team really, and see. , what is the main reason people are signing up with us?

[00:13:00] What's the main reason people are staying long term? And use those actual conversations. So if you can know, if you do have customers currently, if you can get on the phone with them, get their permission, record, those calls. really use a lot of their actual phrasing in the copywriting that you're doing.

[00:13:16] It's gonna just improve your conversion rates that much more, and you're really gonna be able to speak to actual people that have used your tool, service, whatever offer you have to solve a given problem, versus just throwing out these buzzwords that sound good on paper, but people read them and they don't actually know what's going on.

[00:13:32] Ramli John: I really love how you, you brought that up. I see words like all in one or number one, two. Yeah. In the world. And we see in b2b, . What else I like about this tweet is that it has that three I feel like it has that three things that you mentioned. It has the hook it has this spicy take spicy point of view that if you're not gonna use it in real conversation, don't use it in your marketing copy.

[00:13:52] I think the second is lesson, like you're actually teaching something here. Like you're people are like, this is actually applicable. I can take action right now. It's read it out loud. If it's not something you'll say in real conversation, don't put it in your copy. And I. , the word real conversation is very emotional because now I'm thinking about having two people conversing and on a emotional level, there's people have con, hopefully have had conversation in their life.

[00:14:18] Yeah. Whether that's for their family or friends. It does have all three elements. Even if it's just one sentence, which is interesting. 

[00:14:25] Jeremy Moser: Completely. Yeah, absolutely. I think that initial framework is really the basis for some of the best copywriting that I've done, that I've seen in the marketplace.

[00:14:32] So really, like you mentioned too, it doesn't have to be this massive string of copyright. Copywriting can be a single well done sentence. It can be a single. It can be in conversation. It can be really natural within an email. It's just these small little things in the way that you structure them that can make the biggest difference overall.

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[00:15:34] Talk to a strategist. Learn how you can build a high efficiency revenue engine. Now, find a link in the description or show notes. Let's all for now, let's jump back into this episode. 

[00:15:45] I want to shift gears and talk about career. You have been in marketing for over 10 years and. , I'm guessing there, there are some lessons, there's some tips that you have.

[00:15:54] I call them power up. What is some power up that you have that's helped you in your career over the last 10 years that you've been in marketing? 

[00:16:03] Jeremy Moser: Yeah, absolutely. I think from a career standpoint the biggest power up and thing that I've found really is look at people that are just a bit ahead of you and really study what they're doing.

[00:16:13] So find people that you know, someone that's right now doing what you wanna do in the near or longer term future, and really try to learn and study from them. People are super open nowadays with the content they share online, which is amazing, you can listen to podcasts from people that are doing, let's say they're started a company in this given space that you wanna get into.

[00:16:34] You can listen to podcasts from them, see what they're doing, what's worked for them, understand more about their approach and their process, their analysis. I think the biggest level up for your own marketing career, for just a career as a whole really is identifying those folks in your space that are inspiring to you and really understanding what decisions they've made along the way.

[00:16:54] I think that's been a really key thing for me, especially in growing usurp as a company. We're at, I think around 40 people right now and growing really rapidly, and the biggest things for me have just been identifying who are some great leaders in this marketing agency, SAS space as a.

[00:17:10] And really just connecting with them, seeing if I can learn directly from them. Are they in some sort of mastermind that I can join? Do they have free podcast content? Do they post a lot on social media? What can I learn from them? That's been a really key factor for me and even starting in my career.

[00:17:26] One of the biggest roles before this was working in a specific B2B SaaS content marketing agency before starting my own thing. And so learning directly from the ground up from people that you are inspired by that are doing what you want to do. I think this is the biggest career hack of all, because again, you're getting paid to, to learn, right?

[00:17:45] You're. if you're getting paid by them to make the mistakes rather than just jumping straight into something on your own and learning those lessons the hard way, so to speak, where maybe it's financial, maybe it's emotional, whatever it 

[00:17:57] is. 

[00:17:57] Ramli John: And I didn't have this in the list of questions I wanted to ask, but I'm curious who.

[00:18:02] Who has inspired you? Maybe it's somebody you're looking up to right now or a company or agency that you're looking up to. Or it could be somebody in the past where oh, I wanna do that. Who are who are 

[00:18:12] your inspiration? 

[00:18:13] Jeremy Moser: Yeah, absolutely. It's a really good question. So I'm specifically in the agency kind of consulting space as a whole.

[00:18:19] And so the biggest spokes that I look up to right now would be the team at Client Boost would be one of them. Boost. Yeah. I've known Jonathan for a bit. We've connected a few times at different conferences. He's I don't think he's their c o anymore, but Founder of Client Boost pretty large agency, I think based outta Southern California.

[00:18:37] I think maybe they're at around a hundred team members or something like that. So they're a significant size doing a lot of cool work across different spaces and niches. They've really nailed a lot of the branding aspect of an agency. Agencies and like consulting firms, services firms are traditionally really hard to brands and make people recognize you in that space.

[00:18:56] People really don't care that much about an agency brand. They really care about the founders and who they're working with and trusting that this person has done these things. They've clearly demonstrated results for other c. Whereas like you'll see SaaS brands, like maybe it's notion, maybe it's copy, ai, whatever it is, people really associating with those brands.

[00:19:16] The agency space is quite different, whereas people are not super excited about the brand itself. And I think Client Boost has done a really good job at differentiating themselves in that sense, where they're an agency, you recognized by their brand, their style, their design. It's all really unique and done very.

[00:19:31] Another one I really admire is directive consulting. So they're a consulting firm that does stuff holistically in marketing, demand gen, all these kind of cool spaces. And I think Garrett has done a really good job of leading with free. So that's something I touched on a little earlier in this podcast.

[00:19:47] Something that I really enjoy is. Is leading with a ton of free content. And really just building that goodwill over time. So really understanding that most people are gonna see your content. Many of them are not gonna take action. The few of them that do are gonna realize that, hey, they might need you actually to implement a lot of this.

[00:20:05] Since you have that deep experience, it's much more difficult than what the what meets the eye on the surface. So I think don't be afraid to share your free content is a big lesson that I've learned from. I think those two agencies are really good models, at least for me, that have been good sources of inspiration as a whole.

[00:20:22] Ramli John: One other question I have, and it could be around career or marketing, is if you can give yourself your younger self, A marketing advice or a career advice? I'm curious what that advice you'd give your, the Jeremy from 10 years ago, , when you were just starting out in your career, what would be that one or two piece of advice that you'd wanna share 

[00:20:42] to that person?

[00:20:43] Jeremy Moser: Yeah, absolutely. I think the biggest piece of advice I'd share is just to say yes to more opportunities. . Whether that's like in your when you're starting out earlier on, you wanna say yes to as many things as possible when you get further along in your career that flips and you wanna say no to as many things as possible and you really want to dial in that focus.

[00:21:01] But when you're early on, you might not even know really what specific field you wanna be in. You might have a general baseline idea. You might have tested a few things, but you really don't know for sure yet until you spend years and years actually working on some of this. . So I think saying yes early on in new things, that's one thing that really opened up doors for me.

[00:21:19] Was that when you start to say yes, people start to give you more opportunities, you start to expand your what's called like surface area for luck, essentially, right? So you're really just building up how much people are gonna send to you, how much they're gonna trust you. It's in personal relationships, right?

[00:21:35] If you. . If someone comes to you and they invite you to something and you say no multiple times, the odds that they're gonna invite you consistently again is super low, right? They're just gonna assume, okay, they're not interested. No worries. Let me just share this with someone else. And it's the same thing applies in work, right?

[00:21:50] So if you're doing something at a career and someone offers you, hey, here is a cool thing that you can this is a next step. Do you wanna try this route? Do you wanna try something new? I always bias to saying yes and really just opening your doors for opportunities. Cuz again, once you say yes to that, the floodgates open.

[00:22:07] You start to get a lot more opportunities in different areas. And again, you also get to see what you like and you don't like, so you can refine that over time. So I think that's the number one piece of advice I'd give myself too. And it's something that I found true for myself, is that just say yes to more stuff Like I.

[00:22:22] Previous bosses who did that and offered me awesome opportunities. And obviously some of those are nerve-wracking and challenging, but being able to say yes and just dive headfirst into those really just opens the doors for everything else. 

[00:22:34] Ramli John: I totally love that. I think that reminds me of that comedy principle around saying yes.

[00:22:39] Yes. And even if it's scary, I feel like that's a super important thing that people. often think about is oh, imposter syndrome is bad, but saying yes to something that you haven't done before because you want that bigger opportunity. , you'll feel the imposter syndrome. And is that something that you have felt throughout your career saying yes to multiple things, especially 

[00:23:01] early on?

[00:23:02] Jeremy Moser: Yeah, completely. And I think, I don't think it goes away I still feel it on a daily basis of there's people out there obviously doing way better than me in the agency space. So whenever I share something, I'm like, oh, maybe this isn't worth sharing. , maybe I don't have the the good enough knowledge yet on this subject.

[00:23:18] So I think it really never goes away. There's always someone out there that's gonna be doing better than you. That's just really a fact of life. Something you have to just get over and ignore in that your advice at any stage is helpful to someone at a stage below you. And taking if you think about it that way, taking advice now, if you're just starting out in e-commerce.

[00:23:36] going to Jeff Bezos and asking him on advice around e-commerce and Amazon. It's gonna be way, way too high level for you. It's gonna be way over your head. It's gonna be too much information at once. So I think you have to look at it that way of there's rungs to the ladder and you're just moving up your, climbing your way up.

[00:23:52] And at each one of those stages you have valuable information to provide to someone else that's coming behind you and trying to do something similar. And so I think even if that imposter syndrome sets in, you've probably accomplished a lot more than you realize from the surface. And sharing that information with someone can also obviously inspire them to take that leap to start sharing that for their audience too.

[00:24:12] Ramli John: The other thing that 

[00:24:12] I heard that you said that is super important is for people to take action. I think when I love about how you say, if you're gonna, if you ask Jeff Bezos, like how did, how do I become you? I would feel, be crippled with anxiety. Jeff bases a billionaire. I'll never be, I'm just gonna quit.

[00:24:29] But you're talked about like climbing up the just climbing up the ladder and making. Saying yes and putting your foot forward will get you to where you wanna be. 

[00:24:37] Jeremy Moser: Yeah, I think if you zoom in to one more thing to add there, I think if you zoom in instead of zooming out on your goals, it's really helpful to just understand and give you that focus, right?

[00:24:45] If you zoom out at a super high level and you say, I need a hit, or at one hit. 10 million in revenue this year. It's that's a really lofty goal. And it's like when you zoom out, that starts to become super overwhelming and you get that paralysis analysis where your analysis paralysis, where you're you have so many things going on and so many inputs that are required to hit that, that you start to get demotivated.

[00:25:07] You start to procrastinate a bit. So if you just zoom in actually, and you'd say, okay. Here's the next actual step to take to get there, and you just check that off one by one. I think that's really impactful for your career long term. 

[00:25:19] Ramli John: I love this copying framework from Jeremy. I hope you loved it as much as I do.

[00:25:23] You can find out more about Jeremy on Twitter j Moser with a double R in usurp.io. Can find those links in the description and show notes. Thanks to Jeremy for being on this show. If you enjoyed this episode, you'd love the Marketing Powerups newsletter that I sent out Each week. I share the actionable takeaways and break down the frameworks of world-class marketers from each episode and go to marketingpowerups.com to subscribe, and you'll instantly unlock the five best marketing frameworks.

[00:25:50] The top marketers used to hit their KPIs consistently and allow their colleagues. If you wanna say thank you, please and follow Marketing Powerups on YouTube, apple Podcast, and Spotify. If you're feeling extra generous, kindly leave a review on Apple Podcast and Spotify and leave a comment on YouTube.

[00:26:08] It goes a long way for others finding out about marketing powerups. Thank you to Mary, so for creating the artwork and design thanks to 42 agency for sponsoring this episode. And of course, thank you for listening and tuning in. That's all. For now. This is your host, Ramli John. Until the next episode.

[00:26:27] Have a powered update. Bye 

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